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interview to the Belfast Telegraph. She was asked about the reaction of the Unionists during those five weeks. In that interview, the Prime Minister said :"The reaction has been much worse than I expected. One is trying to find out why."
Mr. Trimble : Is she still trying?
Mr. Gow : No. I am saying that we have made progress.
Mr. David Porter (Waveney) : Are we not falling into the Irish trap of fighting old battles time and again? We won the argument about the Anglo -Irish Agreement. My hon. Friend knows full well that I voted with him against it. We won the argument, but we lost the vote. There is only one thing that I know today : that three constitutional parties want to make progress. I do not know whether the talks about talks have run into quicksands. I hope not. Until and unless the Secretary of State comes to the House and says that they have run into quicksands, I am willing-- indeed, eager--for him to continue his negotiations. Please let us not say things in this House today that will make that less likely. Please let us get on with this debate, which is about direct rule. There is no alternative to it. Let us try to make progress.
Mr. Gow : I am praising my right hon. Friend, who said something this afternoon that none of his predecessors said. He told the House, in this most important debate, which has been conducted with intense good will on both sides of the House--which I want to continue--that any agreement made with the Government of the Irish Republic must command
"widespread support within both sides of the community". He knows very well, as does every hon. Member, that the Anglo-Irish Agreement does not command widespread support in the Province. I am praising my right hon. Friend for acknowledging the defect in the agreement. Northern Ireland cannot be governed differently from the rest of the kingdom, save with the consent of a majority of the people who will be governed differently. We do not have that consent, or the consent for the Anglo-Irish Agreement.
I have sent my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State an alternative to the agreement. He specifically said that, if a better agreement were to be arrived at, that would prove to be an important step forward. I think that it would.
My right hon. Friend has been engaged for several months in the talks about talks. His conduct has been praised by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) and those participating in the talks. He had hoped to be able to tell the House this afternoon that agreement had been reached and that talks would begin in the autumn. He regrets that he has not been able to secure that agreement. I understand fully his wish, which is declared in the agreement, that we should try to establish a form of assembly in Northern Ireland that would be supported by all the political parties, whose powers and power-sharing arrangements would be agreed. We have tried this before, and we were committed by the agreement to try again.
That policy has the support of the Irish and British Governments. I doubt whether the arrangement that my right hon. Friend envisages--a power- sharing assembly with legislative powers--will provide a stable structure of
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government for the Province. On the contrary, such an assembly, which by definition would mean that it did not enjoy the confidence of any of the political parties, would be built not on past success but on past failure.Is there a different and better way forward in Northern Ireland than that proposed by my right hon. Friend? I believe that there is--the policy fashioned by Airey Neave when he was shadow Secretary of State, a post that he held from February 1975 until his assassination on 30 March 1979. The Conservative manifesto of 1979 said that, in the absence of devolved government, we would seek to set up regional councils with widely devolved powers over local councils.
There is not such a gulf between my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and myself. I want administrative devolution ; he prefers, apparently, legislative devolution. That is certainly the implication of article 4 of the agreement. There is no permanent resting home between the fact of the Union, to which he referred in his speech, and the claim in articles 2 and 3 of the constitution of the Republic.
The trouble is that the Anglo-Irish Agreement and the idea of an assembly with legislative powers were an attempt to split the difference between the fact of the Union and the claim of the Republic to a place of special privilege in relation to Northern Ireland. Instability will continue, even if we can cobble together a power-sharing executive and assembly.
I hope that my right hon. Friend will reconsider--he has wisely said that he will consider all proposals presented to him in good faith--Airey Neave's proposals, because Airey had studied this for about four years. We should confer modest additional powers on the 26 district councils. That proposal is not anathema to my right hon. Friends on the Treasury Bench. Even the hon. Member for Foyle would be quite happy to see modest additional powers conferred on the 26 district councils.
Mr. Mallon : I am reluctant to interrupt again, but in the absence of my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume) may I assure the hon. Gentleman that my hon. Friend would take no satisfaction from his proposal. To avoid any misunderstanding, I feel it necessary to inform him of that.
Mr. Gow : I am grateful to the representative of the Social Democratic and Labour party for saying that it is opposed to modest additional powers being conferred on district councils. I am grateful for that elucidation, but I say that we should confer modest additional powers on them. Further, we should set up a regional council with powers analogous to those enjoyed by county councils in England and by regional councils in Scotland. We could proceed slowly, but administrative and not legislative devolution is required. We should cease to legislate for Northern Ireland by unamendable Order in Council. The policy that I have outlined could and should guarantee to Roman Catholic and nationalist fair treatment under a just law, which is of the first importance in Northern Ireland. I wish my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State well in the task that he has set himself, but if the talks are not able to reach agreement I hope that he will reflect again on the policy that was fashioned in 1979, which died with the assassination of Airey Neave.
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6.8 pmMr. Paddy Ashdown (Yeovil) : I apologise to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and to all hon. Members for the fact that I shall have to leave this debate before long.
I place on record the fact that I have not heard or seen reported for the past two or three decades a debate that has carried as much hope as today's debate. It is a privilege to be here at a moment of tremendous hope, although that hope has not yet come to flower, as some of us had hoped it might, but is still in the bud. That hope is carried not only in the words of the Secretary of State--we can all understand his position--but in the important and perhaps almost historic speeches that we have heard from the leaders of all the constitutional parties in Northern Ireland, with the exception of the leader of the Alliance party, who is not in the Chamber. However, he is here in the Gallery, if I am permitted to say so. [ Hon. Members : -- "You are not."] I am reminded that I am not. We have heard many important statements and we all understand why people are covering ground for themselves in the difficult position in Northern Ireland. But we can all take a great deal of hope from the tone of the speeches.
History is important, but it is the curse of Ireland, and timing is often important as well. Once again, this debate comes at a most wretched time. The Secretary of State has been involved in delicate negotiations. It would be fair to say, to coin a phrase of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara), that deadlines should not be part of that process. However, the Secretary of State, for reasons that we all understand, has had a deadline imposed on him by this debate. It would have been impossible for him to come here and not to make a statement about the progress of the talks which we all know have been going on. It is clear to us all that he has had to make that statement before--perhaps only shortly before--he would have liked to. That is a shame.
I join other hon. Members in congratulating the Secretary of State on a remarkable achievement. He has, without doubt, united efforts where most of us thought that it was impossible. He has laid foundations where none of us believed that it was possible to do so and he has created hope in Northern Ireland where many of us expected to see only despair for a long time to come. The House, the people of Northern Ireland and the cause of peace are greatly in his debt. It is right at this time to add my appreciation--and, I suspect, the appreciation of all hon. Members--for the leaders of the constitutional parties who have taken part in the process. All of them have displayed a great courage and have shown that they put the peace of Ireland before their own sectional interests. The fact that we have not been able to bring events to the conclusion that we might have liked now is a cruel blow, but a blow that can be understood. I wish to change the tone of what has been said so far. We are now left in a dangerous position. We all know that some of what the Secretary of State and others have been trying to achieve has been exposed today. They have been travelling across no man's land and at the moment when the searchlight has come up, they are not quite on safe territory. There will be a delay until the Secretary of State can announce the finishing touches to the process. The delay is deeply dangerous because it may undermine the
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positions that people have been taking in private, if not necessarily in secret. The fact that the delay may incorporate 12 July makes the matter even more delicate.Mr. Trimble : Why? That is a silly remark.
Mr. Ashdown : I speak as a Northern Irishman myself. The hon. Gentleman will know that the period around 12 July is one of some natural tension in Northern Ireland. [ Hon. Members :-- "No."]
Mr. Trimble : It is one of the quietest periods of the year.
Mr. Ashdown : The hon. Gentleman and I have a different perception of the matter ; perhaps we had better leave it at that.
Mr. Ken Maginnis (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) : Like the right hon. Gentleman, I am not a Member of the Orange Order, but I hope that I can put him right about the period around 12 July. Traditionally, it is a peaceful period. There was a time a few years ago when people who were ignorant about the meaning of 12 July did their best to build it into a period when there would be a flashpoint and trouble. For a year or two, especially when people felt angry about the advent of the Anglo-Irish Agreement, there was trouble. But that has not happened traditionally and it has not happened in recent years. It behoves all of us, including the right hon. Gentleman, not to suggest that we might expect trouble around 12 July. We in Northern Ireland know that there is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Mr. Ashdown : The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point and I concede it to him. We all recognise that there have not been great disturbances around 12 July. When I was a child in Northern Ireland, I was very involved with 12 July. However, it is a period during which what is said rather than what is done may contribute to tension.
Mr. Ashdown : The hon. Gentleman and I will have to disagree on that.
It is bound to be the case that those who seek to proceed in Northern Ireland by terrorism and by violence will see the next period as crucial. They believe that by the extended use of terrorism and violence they can undermine the climate that the Secretary of State has been creating so carefully. That is why I want to make three appeals. First, this is a moment at which we must not let acts of violence undermine what is now in prospect. It is essential that we hold with determination to our current positions. There is no doubt that those who wish to wreck peace in Ireland will use this period to attempt to do so.
Secondly, I hope that those who have been courageous in participating in discussions with the Secretary of State will hold their ground. Their courage and determination now will be a considerable ingredient in the success that I hope that the Secretary of State will achieve.
Thirdly, I appeal to those who now delay--and I do not seek to point the finger. Those who are causing a delay in putting the finishing touches to what the Secretary of State wants should realise that delay is profoundly dangerous. If the brave attempts of the Secretary of State and others now fail, the cause of peace in Northern Ireland may be set back considerably-- perhaps by as much as a decade. That would be a disaster and a tragedy. Every day's delay, every week's delay and every month's delay put this delicate and
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precarious position at more risk. I appeal to those who are contributing to the process to ensure that delay is kept to the absolute minimum. As they delay, the chances of success, the chances of peace and lives are greatly put at risk.6.18 pm
Mr. John D. Taylor (Strangford) : This afternoon, the Secretary of State introduced for a further year direct rule in Northern Ireland. He rightly questioned it as a long-term solution to the system of government in Northern Ireland, and Unionist Members share that view. He mentioned that this was a temporary provision. For the past 16 years, Secretaries of State for Northern Ireland have described it as a "temporary provision." The House will recall that income tax was originally introduced as a temporary provision.
Our parties are totally opposed to the present system of direct rule in Northern Ireland and share with the Secretary of State the aspiration that there will soon come a time when we shall have a system of government that is answerable to the people who live in Northern Ireland. We despise and reject the system which, for the past 16 years, has denied the elected representatives of Northern Ireland in this our national Parliament the right to full parliamentary debates on our legislation and the right to table amendments to it. The hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume) referred to eastern Europe. It is ironic that the people of eastern Europe should have greater parliamentary rights than the people of Northern Ireland, but those countries' representatives have the right to table amendments to new legislation. As a British Member of Parliament, I can table amendments to English, Scottish and Welsh legislation but not to the legislation of Northern Ireland. That system must be brought to an end.
The Secretary of State referred to the Northern Ireland economy and to security. I join him in expressing great appreciation at the improvement in the economic life of Northern Ireland. In the past 20 years, the terrorists and those who support them have done great damage to our economy. It must be remembered that Roman Catholics as well as Protestants have lost jobs as a result of the IRA terrorist campaign. On security, we join the Secretary of State in placing our full confidence and support in the Royal Ulster Constabulary, in the British Army and in its largest regiment, the Ulster Defence Regiment, for the work that they are doing for the citizens of Northern Ireland--Roman Catholic and Protestant alike.
Roman Catholics and Protestants also share in the great misery caused by the IRA. Several thousand lives have been lost, not all of them Protestant ; many Roman Catholics, too, have suffered as a result of the terrorist campaign. Thousands of us, including myself, have been injured during that campaign--both Roman Catholics and Protestants once again. Many Roman Catholics and Protestants have had their businesses destroyed. In considering the economy and the security situation, we must remember that, during the past 20 years, Roman Catholics and Protestants alike have suffered as a result of terrorism.
There has been an air of disappointment about this debate. The Secretary of State said quite openly that he could not go as far as he had hoped to, and his remarks
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confirmed much of the speculation in the press. It seems that, even until yesterday, he had hoped to be able to go further. There used to be a slogan in Northern Ireland, which the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) will remember well : "Ulster says no." It seems to me that today that slogan has been replaced by another : "Dublin says no." It appears that some form of veto has been exercised at the last minute to stall what many of us had hoped would be political progress in the totality of relationships in these islands. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland took the initiative in January this year, and during the past six or seven months the leaders of the constitutional parties in Northern Ireland and, indeed, the Dublin Government have been in consultation with him. That is what politics is all about--dialogue, participation and an examination of the problems. I think that the Secretary of State will agree that there was a positive response from all the constitutional parties in Northern Ireland, and we pay tribute to the leadership given by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Molyneaux) and the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley), who have jointly presented the Unionist position to the Secretary of State. There has been some despondency today, but I am not despondent. Unbelievably, in November I will have been a Member of Parliament for 25 years. I have spent 10 years at the European Parliament as well as serving here and--more interestingly- -eight years in the Northern Ireland Parliament and time in two Northern Ireland assemblies and at the constitutional convention in Stormont. All those various institutions created by different political initiatives have collapsed one by one, for reasons that we need not go into this evening. But with all my experience, I am not despondent. I may be disappointed, but I say to the Secretary of State, "Carry on," because many of us in both sections of the community in Northern Ireland admire the leadership that he has given to the people of Northern Ireland in 1990. We want him to carry on the work that he has been doing and we will respond positively, as has been evident from the contributions made by the two Unionist leaders in recent months.The first and most important question that needs to be addressed is Northern Ireland's position within the United Kingdom, and we warmly welcome the confirmation by the Secretary of State today of the Government's position on Northern Ireland. Our rights here in the national Parliament must also be addressed quickly.
We agree that there should be some devolution of power back to the people of Northern Ireland, although the exact form of that devolution has yet to be considered. It is tremendously important that Catholics and Protestants, Unionists and Nationalists should become involved in the administration of the state, so that they gain trust and confidence in each other and so that younger politicians become involved in the political life of Northern Ireland. We hold out the hand of friendship to the Nationalist minority-- which will remain a minority for some time if the birth statistics given by the hon. Member for Antrim, North are anything to go by--and offer its members a shared responsibility in the administration of the state. Then there is the question of the relationship with Dublin--a major problem. Dublin may today have exercised the veto given to it by a Conservative Government whose representatives flew in by helicopter
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unbeknown to the Ulster people, signed the Anglo-Irish Agreement and flew out again before we heard on the 1 o'clock news that they had for the first time given a say to a foreign Government in the internal affairs of part of the United Kingdom. That decision was taken without reference to the two pillars of democracy, consultation and consent. There was no consultation with the people of Northern Ireland and no consent was sought. The Anglo-Irish Agreement was imposed upon us. As the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow) implied, it was thought that, in time, the Ulster people's opposition would be worn down, but that has not happened.There is now greater realism in London and Dublin, both of which realise that the opposition of the people of Northern Ireland to the Anglo-Irish Agreement is much stronger now, in 1990, than it was four and a half years ago and that the agreement has become the major obstacle to political progress in the Province. That obstacle must be removed. London and Dublin recognise that today--unfortunately, four and a half years too late. We in Ulster--Roman Catholics and Protestants alike--have had to suffer the results of the stalemate during that period.
We must address the relationship of Dublin to Northern Ireland. The hon. Member for Foyle said that history had implications for the internal affairs of Northern Ireland. He referred to the role of Ireland and of the United Kingdom in Europe. For 10 years, he and I served together in Strasbourg in the European Parliament and very often we co-operated in the interests of Northern Ireland. However, he missed one point in trying to draw a comparison between the situation in Ireland and that in France, Germany and elsewhere in Europe. Barriers are disappearing in Europe and borders are becoming more free. France and Germany are co-operating. However, they all recognise each other. France does not claim jurisdiction over part of Germany. It recognises Germany. Recognition is the main problem in the island of Ireland today as we look forward to co-operation. Of course, in the European context today there are more reasons for co- operation between Belfast and Dublin than at any time since the Republic of Ireland left the United Kingdom in 1921. We have common policies now in fisheries, agriculture, the environment and in many other aspects of public life. It would be good for all the people in the island of Ireland if we could have some means of co-operating together on some of those issues. There is an openness on the Unionist side if the obstacles to co-operation can be removed. The obstacles must be spelt out from the Unionist Benches. I disagree with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland that the constitutional claim by the Republic over Northern Ireland could more or less be forgotten or ignored. That is not so. As the recent judgment confirmed, in any negotiations with Northern Ireland, the Republic is under a constitutional imperative to use co-operation with Northern Ireland to try to gain a united Ireland. So long as the Republic does not come to us as a partner who respects us, I am afraid that we cannot have real co- operation within the island. As Unionists, we are anxious to bring about more co-operation within our island. However, first of all Dublin must reconsider articles 2 and 3 of its constitution. They must be amended by a referendum within the Republic of Ireland. If we see that kind of progress, we can certainly get real co-operation within the island of Ireland
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between the people of Northern Ireland and the people of the Republic. That would be good for the totality of relationships within the whole of the British Isles.I look forward to the day when we will have a settlement in Northern Ireland which involves both sections of the community and the Administration ; which will bring about co-operation between Belfast and Dublin ; which will guarantee Northern Ireland's position within the United Kingdom ; and which will bring to an end the perennial squabbling between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland on the issue of Northern Ireland.
Should progress not be made--we remain hopeful that it will be made--should Dublin continue to say no, there must come a time, sooner rather than later, when the order that we are renewing tonight will cease to be the law of this land. We must move quickly to a situation in which the people of Northern Ireland, irrespective of those who are now saying no, are given their full rights in this our national Parliament.
6.33 pm
Mr. Ken Maginnis (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) : As I listened to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, I could not help but feel that I was listening to and watching someone who was sad because his expectation for today could not and would not be realised--or at least realised within the time scale that he had set himself. From various meetings with the Secretary of State since he first came to Northern Ireland, I have found him to have attributes which, dare I say it, some of his predecessors did not possess. He has the ability to listen and then to respond to the points that one has made instead of trying to lead one down an alley or divert one's attention to a different issue. This evening, the Secretary of State has, despite the setback, endeavoured not to lead us down a different alley or on to a different issue.
The Secretary of State spelt out clearly that the impediment to progress that we had all expected derives from the attitude of the Government in Dublin. If the Secretary of State has not been too harsh in dealing with that Government's attitude, perhaps that is because he recognises, as we all do, that a Government sitting in the Dail have an imperative enshrined within articles 2 and 3 of the Irish constitution to do nothing--I use the term in the
constitution--before it achieves the
"reintegration of the national territory."
However, we all know that the island of Ireland has never been a single political entity except under the Administration based in Westminster. For the past 70 years the people of Northern Ireland have had a political identity. We cannot sweep away 70 years of history.
The hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume) referred to the changes in eastern Europe. If we look at the map of Europe, it is clear that many countries honoured today achieved their boundaries after the establishment of Northern Ireland as a political entity in the early 1920s.
The Secretary of State made one mistake this evening. He said : "Although the constitutional question has often seemed central to matters in Northern Ireland, I turn to it now in the hope of putting it to one side. We regard the position as clear."
Irrespective of how the Secretary of State meant it--I think that I know what he meant when he said
"We regard the position as clear"--
the first part of his statement will be misunderstood. In the Irish Republic it will be interpreted as meaning : "Quite
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honestly, if nobody raises the matter, if nobody concentrates our minds on the issue or draws articles 2 and 3 of the Irish constitution to our attention, we here in the House of Commons do not particularly care about it." I want the Secretary of State or whoever replies on his behalf to emphasise that the second part of his statement is more important than the first. That will reassure us greatly in Northern Ireland. At this moment of some disappointment, we need that reassurance.Will the Secretary of State reconsider the implications of the McGimpsey court case? It has become increasingly clear, not just in respect of what has happened regarding the proposals that the right hon. Gentleman had hoped to bring here today, but since 1 March, that when the McGimpseys went to the Supreme Court they managed unequivocally to bring out what the present Taoiseach said he has always recognised--that there is a constitutional imperative to unite the island of Ireland, and that the territorial claim is a real legal claim in Irish terms, not merely a political aspiration.
The extradition cases brought in the past few months have proved that there is a serious restriction on any Irish Government--whether a Fianna Fa il Government, or one made up of an amalgam of parties or of any other single party--as they are not permitted by their constitution to enter into any agreement that may respect the position of Northern Ireland or of Unionists in Northern Ireland. I challenge the Secretary of State to consider that issue, and to decide--if I am right, and if the courts have proved me right --whether it is the responsibility of the Government not merely to assert that they and the House do not recognise the Irish Republic's territorial claim, or to assert that that territorial claim is not recognised internationally, but to go a step further and take the issue to the international courts. The Government have taken other issues involving the Irish Republic to the international courts--successfully, in one or two recent cases--to have them resolved.
If the Government shirk their responsibility in this respect, some of us are prepared to take the case to be judged in the European Court. In the light of the strong statement that the Secretary of State made this evening, it is the Government's responsibility to take the issue to an international court, and to have his opinion and that of the House endorsed once and for all.
If hon. Members are serious about trying to bring peace, stability, understanding and co-operation to Northern Ireland--all Unionist Members are committed to that--we must establish the basis upon which we can do so. That basis does not exist now, as there is a fundamental difference of opinion between the British Government and the Government of the Irish Republic about the status of Northern Ireland.
I remind the House of the exact degree of scepticism voiced by the advocate of the Irish Government during the McGimpsey court case when he talked about article 1 of the Anglo-Irish Agreement and the status of Northern Ireland. He referred to the McGimpseys' counsel thus : "Now, Mr. O'Flaherty referred to Article 1, my Lord, headed The Status of Northern Ireland'. When one reads that Article, one looks at the status of Northern Ireland, it is not defined at all. It is carefully not defined, my Lord, carefully not defined."
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I have quoted those words in the House before, and I make no apology for doing so again. As long as we try to build progress on a lie or on a deceit we are bound to fail. I ask the Secretary of State to seek the truth, and let us build upon that.6.45 pm
Mr. Ken Livingstone (Brent, East) : I join in the general approval that has been given to the activities of the Secretary of State, and I hope that that will not cause him any problems. I cannot think of a more difficult job, and I was immediately impressed, early in his tenure of office, when he gave the press a review of his first 100 days in office. Not everyone shares my enthusiasm for that interview, but it was refreshingly honest after the best part of two decades of deceit, humbug and a lot of false promise and hope. If the House is realistic, it will realise that the right hon. Gentleman was merely relaying to the public information from Army intelligence sources and military strategists about the real balance of forces and potentials in the north of Ireland.
Equally, I hope that no one will be particularly surprised if I say that I hope that something will grow out of this initiative. It would be wonderful if it did. I agree with other hon. Members that there have been a lot of initiatives, about which much was said at the time, but over the two decades they have all run into the ground. I would not want to do or say anything to damage the initiative if it can bring together the communities in the north of Ireland, provide a lasting solution to the problems that beset the island of Ireland and lead to the establishment of normal relationships within the two communities and between Ireland as a whole and mainland Britain.
The House knows that I should like to see a united Ireland. I suspect that, if it were united, people would, within a very short time, look back on these events with amazement. The horrors of the past few hundred years, and especially of the past 20 years, would rapidly recede into history.
I do not apologise for returning to a subject that I have raised before and I am not trying to undermine the Secretary of State's work, but for Britain to carry the enthusiasm of both communities in the north of Ireland they must be certain that there is a degree of justice and openness about what Britain does in Ireland. Those of us who have pursued the issue of some of the abuses that have taken place in the north of Ireland in recent years will help to create a lasting and peaceful solution. While abuses remain covered up there will be continuing suspicion and reluctance to trust that the British Government are genuinely even handed.
I shall again dwell on the events surrounding the Kincora boys home. We have been told again and again that that matter has been investigated and closed. We have been told again and again when we have raised the issue of what happened in Kincora that if hon. Members have any evidence they should submit it to the appropriate authorities and it will be fully investigated. Yet, with every month that passes, more and more damning information comes to light, showing that those who have genuinely tried to investigate what happened in Kincora--the RUC--have been blocked in their
investigations.
I want to draw particular attention to what I thought was an excellent programme on BBC television on 2 June
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--"Public Eye"--which once again brought major new evidence to light by identifying a senior intelligence source who was able to point out that he had notified MI5 at the most senior level of the events in the Kincora boys home.I shall recount the events at Kincora for the benefit of any right hon. or hon. Member who has not followed the story. Certainly anyone who has had to rely on the British press for that information will be very uninformed. Three men who were subsequently sentenced for their acts at Kincora--Joe Mains, Raymond Sempel and William
McGrath--presided over the Kincora boys home for the best part of two decades and had a record of systematic, year-by-year child abuse of the most violent kind. They were guilty of acts that are deeply shocking. It is impossible to read the testaments of the boys concerned without being shaken--they are horrifying. That abuse continued for perhaps even longer than two decades.
It is worrying that disquiet at that state of affairs was expressed first not by someone on the left or even in the Labour party. When those three evil men were finally sentenced to prison for their long campaign of child abuse, the then Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland, Sir Robert Lowry, said--
Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow) : Perhaps I may interrupt my hon. Friend to make this observation. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is usually the most courteous of men, but I note that he is leaving the Chamber. It may well be that he has urgent business elsewhere, but some of us are of the opinion--and the Parliamentary Private Secretary, the hon. Member for Lancashire, West (Mr. Hind), may laugh--that the issue that my hon. Friend raises will not go away. It will be raised again and again because it is a disgrace to the British state.
Mr. Livingstone : I agree with my hon. Friend. It is a pity that we do not have a further response from the Government to the points that have been raised. I also agree with my hon. Friend that the issue will not go away and that we will continue to raise it. There are other guilty men who should be in prison for what they did, or for what they did not do, but who remain free.
Sir Robert Lowry said when sentencing Mains, Sempel and McGrath : "It is not my custom, nor is it wise, to allocate blame to people who are not before the court. But many people will be surprised to learn that such a state of affairs as prevailed in this boys home was able to go on for so many years."
Ten years have elapsed, and there have been six inquiries, but still no satisfactory answer has been produced to Sir Robert's point.
It is a matter of widespread public concern in Northern Ireland in particular that, although the authorities knew since at least the early 1970s what was happening at Kincora, there was no intervention. The suffering and abuse inflicted on those boys continued. The word "abuse" cannot fully describe what was done. There were two decades of systematic, continuous, violent anal rape of the most appalling kind. I commend right hon. and hon. Members to read the boys' accounts. Many of them have grown into men whose lives can never be put back together. They live with the consequences of the treatment that they suffered. If there is any evidence that the state knew what was happening as early as 1974 but decided to take no action, that is a crime as grave as that of the sodomisers themselves.
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Mr. Dalyell : I ought to place on record that the Secretary of State has returned to the Chamber. Perhaps he had to leave his place for the same reason that we all do from time to time, but I am glad that he has returned to hear my hon. Friend's remarks.
Mr. Livingstone : I often find that people tend to hurry off when I am talking. It is a continuing problem that I have. It may be that people do not like to hear what I have to say.
This year, there has been a series of dramatic developments, and I refer not just to the findings of the investigation by "Public Eye". Earlier this year, after years of our hearing Colin Wallace being dismissed as a crank, a Walter Mitty figure, and someone who was to be ridiculed, the Secretary of State for Defence came to the House and admitted that there was evidence to support Colin Wallace's allegations. Although most press attention focused on Clockwork Orange and on whether there had been a campaign to destabilise the Labour Government in 1974, that was not the biggest crime. The vital point is that Colin Wallace was aware of events at Kincora and made his senior officers aware of them. He also drafted press briefing material that drew attention to the role of McGrath, who was running a paramilitary organisation called TARA. That material was forensically tested to provide evidence for Paul Foot's book, and it was proved that those documents were written at the time claimed by Colin Wallace and not after the event. The documents made it clear beyond doubt that senior Army intelligence officers and MI5 knew as early as 1974, and certainly by 1975, that systematic child abuse was occurring at Kincora--which was allowed to continue until 1980, until exposed not by the authorities but by the press.
We have a right to say that if the Government had devoted one tenth of the effort directed at denigrating Colin Wallace to investigating with an open mind the events at Kincora, the problem might by now be resolved, and all the guilty brought to justice.
We know that there is to be an investigation by Mr. Calcutt, but I regret that the Government have not made its terms wide enough to allow Mr. Calcutt to investigate Kincora. In the past, the terms of reference of those charged with investigating Kincora were so narrowly drawn that it was virtually impossible for them to investigate the claims that Army intelligence and MI5 knew what was happening. That has fed the strong suspicion that there was a reason for MI5 allowing that child abuse to continue. That is the most disturbing allegation that can be made.
Mr. Dalyell : If my hon. Friend will allow me to intervene once more while the Secretary of State is present, I emphasise the sheer anger that is felt by some of us. On 10 June, Colin Wallace wrote to the Prime Minister, mentioning certain persons by name :
"I enclose with this letter a selection of pages from a document which was typed during the period for the Information Policy unit by Mr. C. T. T. Whitehead, until recently Deputy Chief Press Officer at the MOD and currently with the Home Office".
At least a fortnight later, Mr. Whitehead had not been contacted and knew nothing of the matter. No one had bothered to do anything about Mr. Wallace's letter. There
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was a complete reluctance on the part of some individuals to get up off their backsides and find out more. That is why we are so angry.Mr. Livingstone : I share my hon. Friend's anger. This issue should stand apart and not be subject to the usual restrictions on the length of time available for the Secretary of State to reply. It is not unusual when one writes to a Minister about detailed points of concern relating to Kincora that six months elapse before one receives a full reply. Instead, one is sent holding reply after holding reply. That suggests that someone is deeply worried. The television programme "Public Eye" on 2 June brought new information to the attention of the public. It definitely identified that by 1975 the state knew about the abuse of young boys at Kincora. Roy Garland, who had been number two in the paramilitary organisation TARA, as effectively its deputy commanding officer, approached the police. He had been frustrated by not being able to get some movement by the RUC on the allegations that he had heard, so he conveyed his concern to two intelligence officers based at Army headquarters in Lisburn. A meeting was arranged by one of Roy Garland's Christian contacts who had introduced him to an Army intelligence officer. Interviewed on "Public Eye", Garland said :
"I must say I had the impression they knew a lot already--that like most of these situations, there was nothing terribly radically new that I had to tell them. One of these officers appeared to be really concerned about the situation. Now, when I say concerned, he seemed concerned about McGrath's job and the political involvements as well, and he seemed really and genuinely concerned about it. He said he was a Christian, an evangelical Christian like myself."
Roy Garland never knew what had happened to the information that he gave the two Army intelligence officers, and assumed that nothing further had been done. We owe a debt of gratitude to the "Public Eye" programme, which managed to find out what did happen to that information. Thanks to Roy Garland--not someone with whom I agree politically--by 1975 both the Royal Ulster Constabulary and Army intelligence knew that systematic child abuse was going on ; yet for a further five years lives were destroyed and devastated because of the abuse of young boys.
We need to know what happened to Roy Garland's information. The "Public Eye" programme managed to find the senior of the two Army intelligence officers who met Roy Garland. He was given the alias "James" in the programme ; for obvious reasons he does not wish to be named or identified, as certain people might want to take action against him, and I have no intention of naming him today. The officer was prepared to appear on television and to make very disturbing allegations. He claimed that the information that he had obtained from Roy Garland had been passed on to MI5. "James" continued to work in Northern Ireland for another year or two on various military intelligence operations, but was blocked from doing anything about the information from Roy Garland concerning child abuse.
The senior officer's job was targeting loyalist organisations to gather intelligence. Many people in Army intelligence at that time thought that there was a danger of UDI in Northern Ireland, and of some sort of coup d'etat. While the public believed that the main target was the
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