House of Commons Hansard Debates for 5 Jul 1990

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come over as Northern Ireland Office Ministers. Occasionally someone who has left our shores returns to take over some of the administration of our Province.

With the best will in the world, and no matter how dedicated to the task those people may be, they are not elected in Northern Ireland. They are not accountable to the people of Northern Ireland and very often, although I do not blame them for it, they do not know the nuances of what is happening in Northern Ireland. I have known occasions in Northern Ireland when members of the SDLP and the two Unionist parties and representatives of all sorts of other varieties of constitutional parties in Northern Ireland have agreed on an issue, but the Government have taken another view. They know better than we do, so they just jolly away and do what they intended to do in the first place in spite of the wish of the elected representatives of Northern Ireland.

That is not the way to rule Northern Ireland. That is not a satisfactory way in which to deal with the situation. However, the Government admit that that cannot continue and that there must be more accountability and a greater role for the elected

representatives in Northern Ireland. However, when the situation changed in November 1985, instead of giving control and respon-sibility to elected representatives in Northern Ireland, the Government gave a role and responsibility to the Government of the Irish Republic, still leaving the elected representatives in Northern Ireland without any real responsibility for their own affairs. The Anglo-Irish Agreement was signed. Tonight we were expecting to debate a speech somewhat different from the one delivered by the Secretary of State. I must express my disappointment--and I know it is also a disappointment to many other hon. Members--that the speech that we are debating is somewhat limited in its scope. We believe that it is limited because the Government of the Irish Republic were not prepared to give their consent to the delivery of the original speech, because they wanted to have an input at an earlier stage in the dialogue.

If I were unkind, I might tell the Government that the thorn that pierces their flesh comes from the tree that they planted. Through the Anglo-Irish Agreement they led the Government of the Irish Republic to believe that they have a control and responsibility in Northern Ireland which they now seek to exercise. If the Government of the Irish Republic are reticent to agree to this sort of process because they believe that Unionists are insincere, that Government are wrong.

I pay tribute to two Unionist leaders--I fully support the steps that they have taken--who have entered into this arrangement genuinely and sincerely. They are not interested in a process that only deals with one aspect of our problem, as they want to deal with all its aspects. If they merely dealt with the internal relationship in Northern Ireland, and with the problems of creating structures there, they would still have the Anglo-Irish Agreement around them, and that is not satisfactory to Unionists.

I am as bitter and angry about the signing of the Anglo-Irish Agreement today--I am no more likely to accept it today or tomorrow--as I was on 15 November 1985. It is not an acceptable way to govern Northern Ireland and it does not have the consent of the community there. That has been proved in elections and signalled in opinion polls. The Government should be in no doubt that the agreement is not an acceptable way forward.

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Behind the Secretary of State's speech and the trend in policy that he has been pursuing capably has been a recognition that the best structure for Northern Ireland is one which will have the consent of both sections of our community. The Secretary of State has recognised that the Anglo-Irish Agreement does not enjoy that consent, and a better agreement is possible.

Unionist parties have put proposals to the Secretary of State to demonstrate that we are sincere and genuine. Let no one inside or outside the House doubt that the Unionist parties have entered into this process in good faith, that they now stand ready to take part in a dialogue, that they want to be a part of that process and that no responsibility for delay should be left at their doorstep. The Secretary of State is to be thanked by the community in Northern Ireland for the efforts that he has made. He need not expect that divisions which have lasted for decades--indeed, centuries--in Northern Ireland can so easily be removed. If that had been an easy task, someone would have been able to perform it before. The Secretary of State should not be so downhearted as to lay down the task. I urge him to persevere with it, because it is in the interests of the community in Northern Ireland that we have stable political processes. That very stability will cause a reaction from the men of violence, who will not want the creation of stable structures. The vacuum that will exist in the absence of political stability in Northern Ireland would create the atmosphere in which terrorism thrives. Terrorists will always find it easier to do mischief when a country has no political stability. I urge the Government not to give up the task, because we need firm and stable political structures. The people of Northern Ireland deserve them. I urge the Government not to give up the task, because we need to defeat terrorism. The best way of doing that is to place responsibility for law and order in the hands of an elected representative assembly of the people of Northern Ireland. They will then be in a stronger position to take on the IRA than any British Government could be.

I wish the Secretary of State well with that process. He should not give up. I trust that, before long, he will be able to report to the House that he has produced an agreement between the constitutional parties in Northern Ireland and all the others concerned on the basis of which a dialogue can begin.

10.25 pm

Mr. Jim Marshall (Leicester, South) : This is the first time for years that I have sat through a debate on Northern Ireland that has given me personal hope for its future. I believe that the debate has also given the people of Northern Ireland grounds for hope. I am impressed by the fact that the right hon. and hon. Members representing the constitutional parties of Northern Ireland all expressed cautious optimism this evening, which is something on which the Secretary of State can start to build political structures in the Province.

It is impossible for me to respond to all the points that have been raised, but I hope to do so where most appropriate. Before doing so, I recall that my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) accused me, about halfway through his speech, of being disgruntled with him. I do not know whether that was the correct choice of word, but I have no complaint at all with the content of my hon. Friend's speech. If I was disgruntled,

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it was at the length of his speech--it was not a question of personal dissatisfaction with him. I recall that in a debate on 20 April my hon. Friend drew attention to a fairly long speech of 77 minutes made by the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes (Mr. Brown).

Mr. Michael Brown (Brigg and Cleethorpes) : The hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) also accused me of not listening to my hon. Friend the Minister.

Mr. Marshall : Perhaps that is not unusual in the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes. In any event, I was only drawing attention to the ambiguous nature of my hon. Friend's remarks, in complaining about the length of speeches made by other hon. Members but making an extra-long contribution himself.

Turning to the speech of the Secretary of State, I am sure that he must be pleased both personally and politically that the leaders of all the Northern Ireland parties have praised him this evening. He is probably also aware that this afternoon, in the Dail, the Taoiseach commented on the task that the right hon. Gentleman has undertaken and gave further support to the Secretary of State's personal position. The Taoiseach said :

"The Irish Government have consistently supported the Secretary of State's initiative. We have been as helpful and as positive as possible. We have engaged in an intensive programme of discussions and at least eight meetings have been held at Ministerial level with the British in recent months."

The penultimate paragraph of the speech is particularly welcome and important. It reads :

"Further consultations with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland are necessary at this stage but we are confident that a satisfactory formula and basis for meaningful discussions can be found."

I think that we can all say amen to that.

At the beginning of his speech, the Secretary of State again gave us an overview of the Government's economic and social policies in Northern Ireland. He was, I think, proud to draw attention to the progress that the Government claim to have made, especially in the economic sphere. No objective individual would deny that great strides have been made in that regard ; nevertheless--as I have told the House and the Government before-- there is no room for complacency. Unemployment is still far too high, and productivity rates are still intolerably low compared not just with those in Britain, but with those of our main European competitors. Much still needs to be done. Referring to the emergency provisions Acts, the Secretary of State said :

"When there is a demonstrable need for new powers, I shall not hesitate to ask the House to approve them."

I have no idea what he has in mind, but, if he will not hesitate to ask for approval for new powers, will he at the same time show a similar initiative and energy in removing from the statute book powers that are no longer required or used, such as those relating to internment? We have made that point to him repeatedly in debates on the emergency provisions Acts.

The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Molyneaux) made specific reference to the Anglo-Irish Agreement. He said that Northern Ireland had

"not consented, and never will consent, to interference by an external Government."

He would argue that such interference was implicit in the agreement. I do not wish to dispute his point of view, although it may not be the same as mine ; let me point out,

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however, that the agreement has been overwhelmingly approved by the House of Commons, and my guess is that, if it were put to the House again this evening, it would still be approved by a massive majority. The only way in which it can be removed or superseded is through the normal political process--in this place, in London generally, in Belfast and in Dublin.

Mr. Maginnis : I note that, in five years, the Anglo-Irish Agreement has failed to deliver peace, stability or reconciliation ; nor has it brought us the better security and extradition procedures that were promised, or an end to megaphone diplomacy. Given that the hon. Gentleman still supports it on the same grounds, I presume that he would still endorse the piece of paper waved by Neville Chamberlain in 1938, which-- having received an overwhelming vote of approval in the House--proved equally unsuccessful.

Mr. Marshall : The hon. Gentleman's last comments are unbecoming both to him and to the House.

When we compare the present position in Northern Ireland with the position five or 10 years ago, there is no doubt that there has been progress in controlling terrorism, advancing the cause of the nationalist community, and ensuring that the nationalist community is now more confident in its position in Northern Ireland and in the security forces in Northern Ireland, and far more inclined to pass on information to the security forces, which helps in the pursuit and arrest of terrorists. Co-operation between the security forces in Northern Ireland and in the Republic is now such that even the security chiefs in Northern Ireland would praise the security forces in the Republic.

The hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) said that the internal affairs of Northern Ireland have nothing to do with the Government of the Republic. The hon. Gentleman is perfectly entitled to his point of view, but, as he already knows, the troubles in the north have a knock-on effect in the Republic. They place an intolerable financial burden on the people of the Republic to pay for security. Much of that security arises as a consequence of the co-operation between our security forces and those of the Republic. The hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume) gave the European dimension of the events of 300 years ago, which certainly made an impresson upon me--I do not know whether they made an impression on hon. Members from Northern Ireland. The hon. Gentleman said that perhaps the present and future European dimension offers the best hope for all the people of the island of Ireland. I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman's main point : that we need to build institutions north and south that respect differences between the various communities but emphasise the common interest. Anyone who examines the economy and the social problems of the island of Ireland is inevitably struck time and again by common matters, whether they be problems or whatever. Common interests exist, and we must continue to build upon them. The hon. Gentleman said that it is better that we share sweat rather than blood. That sums up the matter. All hon. Members hope that the people of the island of Ireland can work together and produce a more prosperous place for all the people.

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The right hon. Member for Strangford (Mr. Taylor) referred to shared economic and social hardships and the victims of violence. He said that we must build upon shared experiences to build political institutions that are able to ensure that both communities have responsibility for the internal government of Northern Ireland. Again, we can all share that expression of hope.

I am sure that the Secretary of State will be pleased to note that, according to the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis), he has made only one mistake today ; he is normally accused of having made many.

Although much of the debate has been devoted to the future governance of the Province and the likely success or otherwise of the talks, we are talking about the renewal order for direct rule in the Province. It is clearly unsatisfactory that Westminster politicians should make day-to-day decisions that would be better made by local politicians in the Province.

Direct rule is inadequate and occasionally unjust. On the one hand, it encourages complacency and arrogance from the Government, as is evidenced by Lord Skelmersdale's recent overruling of the health boards over contracts, while, on the other hand, it denies power and genuine responsibility to the elected representatives of the Province, with a consequent detrimental effect on democratic politics and political parties. However, as has been said many times this evening, a real glimmer of optimism now exists. We can all only hope that that optimism is built upon so that we can begin to make new arrangements for the governance of Northern Ireland.

We should not underestimate the daunting task facing the Secretary of State and the harsh realities that he and politicians, both north and south of the border in the island of Ireland, will have to face. Contrary to what the hon. Member for Antrim, North may believe, Opposition Members have never regarded the Anglo-Irish Agreement as an end in itself, but as part of a mechanism that would eventually lead to a better alternative.

I believe that there is cross-party agreement on the need to find a better alternative to the agreement, but the key word is "better". Some people have deliberately attributed unattainable goals to the agreement--perhaps the better and more easily to undermine it--but that has never been the Opposition's position. As the House knows, we formed part of the vast majority in favour of the agreement when it was voted on in the House, but our support was not based on over-inflated expectations about what the agreement could achieve. We never viewed it as a final solution.

As has been said, the great defect of the agreement is the exclusion of the Unionist parties. The agreement does not purport to deal directly with the relationship between Unionism and Nationalism in the Province, but it has inevitably altered the framework within which that relationship exists. The key issue is to deal with that defect without jeopardising the progress that has been made in other areas. Protecting that progress does not mean that substantial institutional changes cannot or must not take place.

However, and in conclusion, all dimensions of the conflict must be tackled if the original problem of the Anglo-Irish Agreement is not to be replaced by new ones. If there is a Division--which I somehow doubt--we shall certainly vote with the Government in support of the renewal order.

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10.42 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Dr. Brian Mawhinney) : Last year when replying to the debate, I hadthe privilege to point out that in their election manifestos all the main constitutional parties in Northern Ireland had made constructive statements about the future. But even in that debate, we did not have the sense of hope that has pervaded today's debate. If a new agreement is reached, I have no doubt that people will look back and see this debate as one of the important milestones along the way to that process.

The majority of hon. Members who have spoken have referred to political developments. Two speeches were exceptions to that, so I shall address them first. Both the hon. Members for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) and for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell), whom incidentally I should like to thank for his expressions of courtesy as they related to those on the Front Bench at that moment, and especially--and deservedly so--to my right hon. Friend the Member for Northavon (Mr. Cope), referred to their concern about what is known as the Kincora affair and related matters and to the conduct of some intelligence officers, among others. Both made detailed speeches, especially the hon. Member for Linlithgow. We shall examine those speeches carefully, not least to ascertain whether issues have been raised that might require a response from my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, or from other ministerial colleagues.

Mr. Dalyell : I thank the Minister for that statement.

Dr. Mawhinney : I pay tribute to not only the content but the tone of the speeches in the debate. It would be improper of me not to start by recognising a unique feature of the debate. It is not often that representatives of six different political parties in the House stand up and pay a united tribute to a working colleague. The words used included "integrity", "honesty", "fairness", "patience", "diligence", "truthfulness" and "sensitivity". All were addressed to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. That was a remarkable tribute. I suspect that he will subsequently rebuke me, although in character mildly and graciously, for drawing attention to that fact. The House has spoken and, especially in a Northern Ireland debate, it is worth drawing attention to the united view of the House. I know that my right hon. Friend will appreciate it.

No matter how great my right hon. Friend's contribution, he would be the first to recognise that others have contributed significantly to what progress has been made thus far. I pay tribute, and I know that he will want to be associated with it, to the leaders of the three parties represented in the House--the Ulster Unionist party, the Democratic Unionist party and the Social Democratic and Labour party--for their role in moving the process forward as far as it has moved. I have no doubt about the contribution that they will continue to make as we seek to move it further forward. On behalf of the Government, I assure the hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) that the sincerity of the Unionists' participation in the process is in no sense in doubt.

The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) opened his speech by saying that direct rule is an arrangement which is designed to contain but not to eliminate terrorism. I hope that on reflection he will change that sentiment. I remind him again of what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said at the

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beginning of his speech. It will continue to be the first priority of the Government to eradicate terrorism in Northern Ireland. That remains the position. Given the robust support that he and his right hon. and hon. Friends have given to the fight against terrorism, I know that he will want to be associated with that sentiment.

Mr. McNamara : Yes, we want to see the eradication of terrorism, but we believe that while we have direct rule, the weapons of democracy are considerably weakened. It would be far better to have representative institutions which are acceptable to the whole population in Northern Ireland, thus reducing the area in which the terrorists can gain support.

Dr. Mawhinney : That view would command widespread support throughout the House. The hon. Gentleman and I also have common ground when we say that terrorism cannot be either excused or condoned in any circumstances. Indeed, the very word terrorism occasionally gives me cause for concern. To those who are not well versed, it might conceivably conjure up a picture that gives some vague justification for those acts or gives a degree of glamour to what these people do. Let us be clear that when we talk about terrorists we are talking about murderers.

During the debate there was a significant discussion about the constitutional point that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made in his speech. There may have been some misunderstanding when he said that he turned to the constitutional question

"in the hope of putting it to one side."

Indeed, the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis) invited me to reaffirm the second half, as he put it, of that sentence, which was :

"We regard the position as clear. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom in national and in international law."

That remains our position. I am happy to oblige the hon. Gentleman by confirming that.

The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone and I took part in an Adjournment debate not long ago on the constitutional question and articles 2 and 3 of the Irish constitution. Most people understand the concern, unhappiness and disquiet caused by the existence of those articles. As I told the hon. Gentleman in that debate--I speak from memory--we would certainly expect the Unionist parties, as part of the discussions that we hope will take place, to want to put those articles on the table for discussion.

The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Molyneaux), the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) and my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow) all, in their individual ways, again identified the continuing concern and unhappiness of the majority community in Northern Ireland about the Anglo-Irish Agreement and their need and desire to see that agreement replaced. I believe that I am right in saying that the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley said at one point that its replacement was of paramount concern to the Unionist community.

I think that we have reached the position where the possibility of a new agreement now exists. I remind the House that my right hon. Friend said that there was no reason why the present agreement should be the last word. He said :

"While neither Government are seeking a new agreement, if a better agreement--which commanded widespread

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support within both sides of the community in Northern Ireland--were to be arrived at, that would prove to be an important step forward." I have heard speeches which described that as a departure, a new emphasis or a change of mind on the part of Government. I do not care to become involved in any of those designations. I am happy to reaffirm what my right hon. Friend said, and to the extent that it is an encouragement, that is good. But any such new agreement will have to flow from dialogue and discussion. That is self-evident. As the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley said, it will have to be built on what has already been achieved.

One is looking for agreement among the political parties that any talks, taken as a whole, should be the occasion to tackle all the dimensions of the problem. That can be expressed in terms of the relationships between the various peoples and communities involved. It can also be expressed in terms of possible institutional arrangements and relationships. Indeed, the manner in which those matters are expressed is, like so much else, sensitive. But more important than that sensitivity is the fact--I believe it to be a fact--that there is general agreement, or common ground, to use my right hon. Friend's expression, that all these matters should be addressed as part of the same process.

It is important to realise that the shared perceptions go further than that. It is also of central importance that each of the potential participants in any talks takes the view that in practice it will be possible to reach a conclusion on any one aspect of the matter only with full knowledge of what will be involved in the others. The various questions interlock and, in the end, while much work would need to be done to address questions separately, final decisions could be taken only on the outcome of the talks taken as a whole. That is of great importance, not least because of the reassurance that it offers to all concerned. Any talks which began with the local political leaders feeling that an important interest had been compromised could not be expected to succeed.

It is essential that any agreement emerging from the talks should be one to which all participants can give their wholehearted assent. No one should feel pressurised to take part or to reach an agreement except on the basis of full and willing consent. Perhaps everyone would readily understand and agree with that, with the exception of the Provisionals, who appear to believe that dialogue can be conducted with the bomb and the bullet.

All neighbours in Northern Ireland need to learn to live together. On behalf of the significant majority of people in Northern Ireland, I reaffirm that they do live together. There is a perception in Britain that everyone in Northern Ireland is at everyone else's throat. Nothing could be further from the truth. If any hon. Members do not believe me, I invite them to come to Northern Ireland and see for themselves. They will be impressed and they will return. That is the acid test.

Most people in Northern Ireland live as good neighbours, one with the other. The right hon. Member for Strangford (Mr. Taylor) was correct to point out that the events which affect the lives of people in Northern Ireland affect them irrespective of which church they worship in on a Sunday. There is a commonality of experience, and of aspiration, which provides a degree of hope for the future.

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The hon. Member for Antrim, North was right to remind the House that there is no direct relationship between where people worship on a Sunday and how they vote. The easy and misleading use of labels to describe what is going on in Northern Ireland is frequently an obstacle to progress. The House owes the hon. Gentleman a debt of gratitude for pointing that out.

Differences exist in Northern Ireland, but they do in every community. It is the responsibility of all of us to make sure, and to do what we can to ensure, that those differences are not allowed to lead to division. Differences can become the strengths of our society, but the legacy of the past too frequently leads to the division of today and the perpetuation of division tomorrow. That was the message of the hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume) and he was right to point it out.

No one is seeking an homogenised Ulster man or Ulster woman to remove differences. One is simply seeking to put differences in their context and to help people to understand, to appreciate, and in some cases to come to terms with the fact that others are different. But that does not make them in any sense threatening. There are misconceptions to be addressed and all of us have a role in that process, not least in the process of political progress.

The Government believe, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made clear, that there is now the basis for talks aimed at achieving political progress in Northern Ireland. There is a basis for entering talks intended to cover the three relationships and, as my right hon. Friend said, it is a basis which he and the Government believe would meet everyone's essential interests.

We have reached that point, not least because throughout the process no one has set a deadline. There has been some suggestion that today's debate constituted, in some form or other, a deadline. It did not. As my right hon. Friend said, direct rule must be renewed if it is to continue, and it must continue in the interim because that is the means of governing Northern Ireland. While there are those who argue that there may have been a degree of convenience, there was no deadline. The process has prospered because no deadline was imposed. I think that my right hon. Friend would agree that, having made progress thus far without a deadline, he is not about to be tempted down that road. We hope to go further, but that remains for another day.

The right hon. Member for Strangford said that he thought that the slogan had been changed from "Ulster says no" to "Dublin says no". The hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth) spoke of road blocks. I hope that they are as encouraged as I am by what Mr. Haughey said in the Dail this evening :

"While substantial progress has been made on a number of important aspects- -progress which we believe can be built on at an early date--a satisfactory basis which would avoid problems later and ensure success has not yet been fully established. Further consultations with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland are necessary at this stage but we are confident that a satisfactory formula and basis for meaningful discussions can be found."

I venture to suggest that, on this occasion at least, the House should unite in endorsing the words of the Taoiseach to the Dail.

Mr. Maginnis : I have listened to what the Minister said. Does not he think that it would have been helpful if, after five years, the Taoiseach had said those words yesterday, thus enabling the Secretary of State to come to the House

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today with a more hopeful and positive message--as he wished to do--rather than with a statement issued this afternoon that suggests ambiguity?

Mr. Mawhinney : I am sure that the hon. Gentleman reflects the understandable impatience of everyone in Northern Ireland and the House to move to arrangements that will be lasting and will command widespread support in the Province and the House. But he will recognise that the issues with which we are dealing have been around for a long time. People feel strongly about them. As the hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) said, they are not issues that lend themselves easily to resolution, or they would have been resolved long ago. The characteristic of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to which the House paid tribute was his patience. We have made progress. We do not make that statement flippantly. We recognise the issues that remain to be resolved. We hope to make further progress, but we are more likely to do so if we do not set deadlines.

Rev. Ian Paisley : Is not it true that we have been stymied in our debate because of the Taoiseach's actions? It is wrong for the Minister to end his speech without the honesty and integrity that were characteristic of the Secretary of State. Let us have the whole truth from him. We know, and the leaders of the talks know, that it was Dublin which prevented the sort of speech that we had expected to hear from the right hon. Gentleman today. The hon. Gentleman should admit that.

Dr. Mawhinney : What I shall admit is that throughout a series of discussions over the past 10 months my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State used his judgment in making progress. He has taken people with him step by step. At times he has patiently addressed what, on the surface, appeared to be irreconcilable differences in a way that satisfied the people concerned. The ultimate reason why the Secretary of State did not make a different speech today was that, in his judgment, the time is not yet right for him to make that speech. It would not command the support of all those with whom he had held discussions and therefore would not lay the best possible foundation on which to build for the future.

Rev. Ian Paisley : That is not true. The fact of the matter is that I have been deceived by the Secretary of State. Let us get that out into the open tonight. The people of Northern Ireland wanted to hear the Secretary of State say certain things today. A few hours before the debate began the Secretary of State was going to make a different speech. The Minister should lay it on the line that it was Dublin that held it up. If the Secretary of State can persuade Dublin during the next few days to take a different route, we shall all welcome it, but let us not bluff anybody. We should let the world know that today that speech was not made because of Dublin's actions.

Dr. Mawhinney : I am not seeking to bluff anyone. The people of Northern Ireland want the Secretary of State to be able to say that there is a basis for making political progress. I hope, as does the hon. Gentleman, that the day is not far removed when that speech will be able to be made to this House. What is not at issue is that that speech has to be made on a particular day at a particular time. As my right hon. Friend said, today's debate has no mystic significance. It is a function of the parliamentary calendar ; it is not a function of the talks that he has had during the

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past 10 months. However, I join the hon. Gentleman and the other party leaders in their wish to see progress made to the point at which the Secretary of State can make the sort of speech that I believe the vast majority of the people in Northern Ireland want to hear.

Mr. Molyneaux : I am grateful to the Minister for giving me the opportunity to confirm what has already been said. As far as I know, there was no disagreement between the leaders of the main parties in Northern Ireland. The blockage came from elsewhere. We can only guess from whence it came. However, the clear implication of what the Minister said about three sentences back was that the leaders of the parties in Northern Ireland had judged that the time was not yet right. I think that I can say, subject to what the hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume) may say, that we came into this building today on the clear understanding and in the expectation and hope that, at long last, on the 15th renewal of direct rule, we should hear the good news that from now on we were in business, and that before the next anniversary of direct rule arrived we should have achieved something for the people of Northern Ireland--as I said in my speech, for all the people of Northern Ireland, not just for Unionists.

Dr. Mawhinney : I believe that the record will show that I said that it was the Secretary of State's ultimate judgment that today was not the day on which to make the sort of speech which I happily acknowledge that the right hon. Gentleman, along with other hon. Members, wished to hear.

A few weeks ago I had the privilege of hosting a reception in Parliament buildings in Belfast for a group of school children from the constituency of the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley. Seven primary schools in Lisburn had come together under "Education for Mutual Understanding" and had produced an anthology of poetry, which is well worth reading. The event attracted a certain amount of media attraction. A 10-year-old boy from Largymore school--the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley will be aware that it is a controlled school--was asked what "Education for Mutual Understanding" meant to him. Most adults would find that question difficult to answer, never mind a 10-year-old boy. He made three or four attempts to answer and told a story which initially seemed to those who heard it to be a diversion.

The boy told of a trip that his school and St. Joseph's school had made to Canada, how good it had been and how much he had enjoyed it. He said that the highlight of the trip was being allowed to get into a kayak and row across a lake. He made it clear that after a little while they learnt how to row straight across the lake. He told the interviewer, "There were two of us from Largymore who were paddling on the left of the kayak, and the two from St. Joseph's were paddling on the right. We eventually got it going in a straight line." He paused and said to the interviewer, "Do you know, if the two boys from St. Joseph's had got out of the kayak we would have just gone round in circles."

From the mouth of a primary school boy in Northern Ireland, that seems to sum up the overwhelming need of the Province--the ability to combine together to make progress in a straight line.

I am conscious of the political realities of Northern Ireland. I know of the significant difficulties that still must be resolved and I am aware of the sensitivities, but equally

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I know of the hope and the magnitude of the prize to be won. I commend the order to the House and hope that it will be the last time that it will be necessary to move it. I also hope that the spirit of the debate can at last be translated into substance.

Question put and agreed to.

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Resolved,

That the draft Northern Ireland Act 1974 (Interim Period Extension) Order 1990, which was laid before this House on 20th June, be approved.

ESTIMATES

Resolved,

That this House agrees with the Report [3rd July] of the Liaison Committee.-- [Mr. Lightbown.]

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PETITION

Local Government Finance

11.12 pm

Mr. Matthew Taylor (Truro) : I beg leave to present a petition signed by some 25,000 people from Cornwall in opposition to the poll tax. It is an opportune moment for it to be presented, because not only did those people oppose the poll tax, but they asked for changes to be made to make it more related to people's ability to pay, specifically through a system of local income tax.

A Committee of the Cabinet is meeting to consider alternatives to the poll tax and how it may be improved. If reports in the newspapers are anything to go by, next year people will have to pay more and the destitution that faces many at present will not be answered by its proposals.

Those proposals have not been finally drawn. The petition suggests a specific way ahead through the Liberal Democrat scheme of a local income tax, and I hope that that Cabinet Committee, whose attention has been drawn to the petition by a letter delivered to No. 10 Downing street by the people of Cornwall, will pay attention to the opportunity and the option that it presents the House.

The petition is signed by 25,000 people from across the county of Cornwall. If it had been collected United Kingdom-wide, that would be the equivalent of 2.5 million signatures. It is a significant petition from my county, and I hope that the Government will respond to and respect the heartache and despair that led so many to put so much effort in collecting it.

To lie upon the Table.

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