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Mr. Jeremy Hanley (Richmond and Barnes) : It is a great honour to second the motion and to follow the excellent and eloquent speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger). I should like to make it clear to the House that I have already written to my constituency chairman to say so. I am thrilled to say that I have not yet received a reply.

All right hon. and hon. Members know of a well-known booklet--the infamous "MPs' Chart", published by


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Andrew Roth. Some Members may cringe when they recall their own potted biographies, perhaps regretting some peccadillo from their youth which is recreated every Parliament for publication ; but what would one give for the description of my right hon. Friend the Member for Ayr in that booklet? In what is an independent assessment he is described as

"tactful ; charming ; warm ; loyal ; cheerful".

I would willingly kill for such a description in Roth--but Mr. Roth has my right hon. Friend bang to rights. I am pleased to take this opportunity to thank my right hon. Friend for his friendship over the years and his always excellent advice and guidance.

My entry in Roth begins with the words "beautiful, affluent, but noisy". I hope that hon. Members will have realised that that describes my constituency, not me. My constituents are very conscious of the deep honour that they have received because of my being allowed to second the Loyal Address.

Richmond is a most pleasant part of the capital city. It forms the eastern half of the London borough of Richmond upon Thames, where we are proud to say that the countryside comes to town. I have great pleasure in sharing parliamentary representation of the borough with my hon. and musical Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Jessel), who is truly a legendary local champion. Who could not be thrilled to represent a constituency that contains the incomparable beauty of Richmond park, the charm and importance of the royal botanic gardens in Kew and almost 12 miles of the River Thames?

This historic place, this birthplace of kings and queens, was represented-- with longevity--for the 50 years before me by only two Members of Parliament : Brigadier Sir George Harvie-Watt and the then Anthony Royle, now my noble Friend Lord Fanshawe. When I was first elected I received a letter from George Harvie-Watt out of the blue. It came from his home in Fife ; he was then in his late 80s. He was one of those often unsung heroes who occupy the position of parliamentary private secretary to a Prime Minister--in his case Sir Winston Churchill. In return, I rang him up, and he gave me some golden advice. He said, "If ever you cannae think of a thing to say at the annual general meeting of the Richmond division, play the bagpipes. It allus works for me!" I very much regret that I have never yet taken him up on that advice, but I wonder what advice he would have given me on this occasion

Mr. John Bowis (Battersea) : Play the bagpipes.

Mr. Hanley : Perhaps the mighty wurlitzer would have been more appropriate.

Having been elected in 1983 in a somewhat surprising way with a less than generous majority of 74, I found my first day at Westminster--as I am sure all hon. Members found theirs--a day that I could never forget. With a majority that small, who is to say what tipped the balance? I have to admit, however, that the day before the election there was a showing on television of my father's film, "The Blue Lamp". It was the archetypal bobby-on-the-beat type of movie and, who knows, perhaps it helped. But when I went through St. Stephen's entrance on my first day to take the oath the policeman on the door said, "Mr. Hanley, I am very sorry that your late father is not around to see you come into the House. He would have been very


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proud, sir." I said, "Thank you sergeant, that is kind of you." He added, "Mind you, sir, I think the shock might have killed him." I am sure that hon. Members have noted the smiles that play on the faces of the constabulary in the Palace of Westminster. Could it be the confidence of a job well done or, more likely, that whatever the result of the next election they will be back?

On that day I learned one of the most important lessons about the House. I sat in the Chamber waiting to take the oath and watched from a modest spot near the back on the Government side as the famous and the lesser known filed past. It was like viewing a walking waxworks or, as one of my constituents said, "It is just like Madame Tussauds except that the exhibits look slightly less lifelike." I sat on the fourth row back and was conscious of somebody sitting down next to me. I turned round and saw that it was the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley). Startled, I said, "How do you do? I did not realise that you were on our side." My hon. and reverend neighbour said in his unmistakable tones, "Never confuse sitting on your side with being on your side." Hon. Members will agree that that phrase sounds strangely pertinent even today.

One of the welcome experiences of this place that is little known to those outside is that whatever our political differences we respect and even admire many of our foes that is, as long as they are not in our own party. In researching the last 12 years of Hansard before undertaking this august task, I noticed that one of the regular features of the proposing or seconding of the Loyal Address was the intervention of the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer). The House will understand when I say that I would willingly have welcomed an intervention from that source today. I know that we all wish him well. I should also like to pay tribute to Ian Gow whose speech last year was a model of perfection. I wish that I had one ounce of his dedication, his courage or his ability. The Gracious Speech contains some important measures. My constituents are keenly aware of the responsibility that we all bear to future generations for the preservation of our planet and believe that personal example is vital. The buck stops at home. I congratulate all those in Richmond and Barnes who give of their time and effort to try to repair the damage caused carelessly, often stupidly, and always anti-socially by others. Richmond has won the national Tidy Britain award twice in the past five years and was in the final the past two years.

Richmond people care passionately about their environment and the planning Bill outlined in the Gracious Speech will be of great interest to them. While we recognise the need for smaller housing units as the pattern of family life changes, insensitive building and demolition can ruin our harmonious street scenes. Halting pollution is more than merely a matter of picking up litter or turning to less harmful substances. Richmond and Barnes suffer pollution from aircraft noise. While we welcome the Government's action in recent years to reduce the number of night flights and to phase out noisier aircraft engines, more needs to be done.

We also believe in more efficient public transport. We are grateful for the investment in London Regional Transport and for the new routes that have been planned and we look forward to ways of speeding up travel around the capital, especially on buses, so that they will attract even more passengers. It is a crime that 80 per cent. of all


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cars that cross Kew bridge have only one person in them. Therefore, we look forward to further progress towards an integrated system of public transport for the south-east.

We also look forward to further progress in adopting the remaining few European directives to achieve the single market and we recognise that Britain is first in the list of nations achieving their responsibilities. I am a convinced European and I have the dreams and hopes of those who would see an even more united Europe. However, I commend to the House and my constituents the responsible and realistic policy of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and her Ministers, who do not sign away Britain's sovereignty and interests on hopes and dreams alone, but base their decisions on solid achievement when the difficulties are conquered and the barriers to success overcome.

My constituents, who have long enjoyed the sight of herds of deer in Richmond park, are keen to protect further the wildlife of our country and to eradicate cruelty to living things wherever in the world it occurs. We are thrilled that salmon have now returned to Teddington lock, although there was slight disappointment when the first one that was caught by an angler, who claimed the substantial prize on offer, proved on closer inspection to have all the characteristics of having come from the deep freeze at Tesco. Since then, genuine salmon have been swimming up the cleaner Thames. My first parliamentary initiative was to have anglers' lead weights banned, as they did so much harm to the swans that used to be a common sight on the Thames. I am pleased to say that swans are there again. I thank my right hon. Friend the recently appointed Secretary of State for Health, who, when a Minister in the Department of the Environment, was instrumental in that ban and in beginning the essential task of greening the Commons. I offer my heartiest congratulations to him on his elevation, and to all those who sit in this Chamber in their new guises, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle (Mr. Leigh), the newest Minister, who represented Richmond in the late, unlamented GLC. My constituents will also welcome in the Queen's Speech a strengthening of the parole system, particularly if it leads to fewer people in our prisons. They will welcome the promised action on the improved quality in education and new benefits for disabled people. They will also welcome the continuing commitment to improve the quality of the national health service.

I am grateful for this opportunity to second the Loyal Address and welcome the Queen's Speech. However, I am conscious of my mortality, in that seven of the last 13 seconders have failed to return to Westminster in the general election after their contribution. I would far rather suffer the longevity of my other predecessors. In spite of Labour Members, I should love to come back time and again because I can think of no more worthy, important or fulfilling task than to serve my constituents in this hallowed House.

3.8 pm

Mr. Neil Kinnock (Islwyn) : I follow the happy convention of the House by congratulating both the right hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) and the hon. Member for Richmond and Barnes (Mr. Hanley) on two fine speeches in proposing and seconding the Loyal


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Address. I associate myself with what the right hon. Member for Ayr said about the late lamented Ian Gow. I cannot speak on this occasion without recalling, as I probably shall on many future occasions, on both sides of the House, that Ian spoke in this debate last year. I am certain that no hon. Member could fail to remember his speech with both affection and respect. We continue to miss him greatly. The right hon. Member for Ayr and the hon. Member for Richmond and Barnes may believe that they were selected by the Prime Minister and the Government Whips, or whatever machinery is currently in use, for the honour that they have discharged with considerable merit because of their wit and standing in the House or their more general distinction. I suppose that they would be right on all three grounds. I can tell them, however, the real reason why they were selected. Having read everything that has ever been written about both the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Gentleman, I discover that they have extraordinary records. They are without blemish, without eccentricity and without one instance of rebellion. I am sure that they were chosen just to make my job difficult. I hope sincerely that whoever chose them for that reason will not succeed. However, the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Gentleman are model Members. Whoever was responsible for their selection may have realised with particular prescience that, on this day in this week, above all weeks, the Conservative party would need models of conformity to address the House, Members who could be held up to all others as examples of how hon. Members should conduct themselves.

The right hon. Member for Ayr, who has a distinguished record, has not only been Secretary of State for Scotland and Secretary of State for Defence. Perhaps his most glorious moment came last year when he was a campaign manager, when the hon. Member for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer) ran, if that is the operative term, against the Prime Minister. I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman would describe that as a demanding task. It may be that, after recent tumultuous days he is already out of a job, as the task may not have to be undertaken this year. I am sure, however, that if the job has to be done, the right hon. Gentleman would discharge it with great loyalty.

The right hon. Member for Ayr has a long and distinguished record of loyalty. He is the man who in 1963 stood down from his seat so that Lord Home of the Hirsel could represent a constituency in the House of Commons. Last year, the right hon. Gentleman stood up for the Prime Minister in order to be her election agent. I admire that. I am entirely in favour of such loyalty to leaders.

The dissident past of the right hon. Member for Ayr is rather more chequered. It is said that at Oxford university he joined all the political parties, including the Communist society. I hope that the Prime Minister was not listening to that. If the right hon. Gentleman finds himself in any difficulty about that, he should describe himself as a crypto-Communist. That will not do him any harm at all. Like the right hon. Member for Ayr, I am fortunate in having a constituent with literary connections. The two figures who are fortunate in communicating with her are Dylan Thomas and St. Paul. Perhaps we could get the right hon. Gentleman's constituent and mine together so that they could have a sort of posthumous literary


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function. I should think that it would be an interesting lunch, especially with Robert Burns and Dylan Thomas in attendance, with St. Paul looking after them.

Mention of Robert Burns reminded me of what I consider may be an apposite verse on this occasion which was Robert Burns's "To a Louse." It might be subtitled a homily to warn would-be contenders to leadership of political parties :

"O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us

To see oursels as others see us!

It wad frae mony a blunder free us,

And foolish notion."

I am not accepting any invitation to Burns night, before the right hon. Member for Ayr runs away with that idea.

The hon. Member for Richmond and Barnes was a complete delight. I am sure that everyone would agree with that. The hon. Gentleman has certain advantages. He is the son of distinguished actors, both of whom rightly command admiration. He gave evidence of that in recounting his encounter with the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley). I had a not dissimilar encounter when I shared an office with the hon. Member for Antrim, North in those halcyon days when members of different parties shared offices, and they did not come any more mixed than the hon. Gentleman. On one occasion, he caught me doing a rather bad impersonation of his accent. He said that I was not to worry about that, because impersonation was the sincerest form of flattery. However, he added, "Not that I believe in flattery of course."

A biography describes the hon. Member for Richmond and Barnes as "An attractive giant who can display two faces."

It is a strange aspect of politics, but I think that that description was intended as a compliment. We were delighted by the hon. Gentleman. He has been described by a grandmaster as the best chess player in the House of Commons, so he is obviously a man not only of theatrical and political talent, but of patience and planning. After his remarkable speech, I can say only that his contract is definitely in the post.

The Queen's Speech contains measures that the Opposition are likely to support. Proposals such as those intended to combat rising crime and trafficking in drugs, to improve the collection of maintenance for children, and to provide new benefits for the disabled will naturally receive our constructive attention. We shall continue to support the United Nations policy for securing a complete and unconditional Iraqi withdrawal from Kuwait ; nothing else will do. That must remain the absolute precondition of any progress in any form of any negotiations.

Naturally, the more widely preferred method of fulfilling the United Nations policy is by peaceful means. That is why there is such a strong case for prolonged and sustained sanctions, backed by military deployment, to maintain pressure on Saddam Hussein until he complies fully with international law and United Nations policy. Meanwhile, the Iraqi dictator is playing a callous game with hostages and their families. Everyone is rightly pleased when any hostages are released, but no one can give credence to Saddam Hussein's claim that he is acting out of compassion in permitting such releases. The only way in which that claim can gain any validity is if he replaces his invitations to relatives to visit hostages with the immediate freeing of those hostages.


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Those who are held and those who care for them are desperate for release, or even for respite, from their anxiety. They know, as well as anyone in this House knows, what Saddam Hussein is up to. They know that if they visit Iraq they will risk injury and exploitation. All that is clear, but, frankly, if anguished people go to Iraq to see their loved ones in such circumstances, I am sure that hon. Members on both sides of the House will agree that we should treat them with understanding and compassion, not condemnation. They are in a terrible position.

Mr. Nigel Griffiths (Edinburgh, South) : I agree with my right hon. Friend. Will he take this opportunity to tell the House his views on the outrageous statement last Monday by the hon. Member for Halesowen and Stourbridge (Sir J. Stokes) that the families of hostages should "stop mewling and puking"?

Mr. Kinnock : I am grateful to my hon. Friend. In common with many other people, when I heard about the remarks made by the hon. Member for Halesowen and Stourbridge (Sir J. Stokes)--who is in the Chamber--I felt abomination. I reflected further and recalled the origin of the lines

"mewling and puking in the nurse's arms."

I thought it apposite that I should recall the final lines of that play, which I studied for O-level. The hon. Member for Halesowen and Stourbridge may recall that the quote concluded something like this :

"Last scene of all

second childishness and mere oblivion ;

Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste"--

and, I would add, "sans common decency and common humanity"-- "sans everything."--

[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker : Order.

Mr. Kinnock : As we consider the Queen's Speech, we are bound to reflect on the condition of the Government who produced it. After all, it is only a year since we were told that the Government had "The Right Team for the Future".

Since then, no fewer than five members have left the Cabinet team. Some went-- [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker : Order.

Mr. Kinnock : It is deliberate, Mr. Speaker.

Some left that Government team because of family commitments ; one left because he had effectively banned himself from playing in Europe ; and then, last Thursday, the most recent departure came because of what I think we could call the recurrence of old injuries--as far as I could see, they were back injuries. Over the years, the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) has had a great deal to put up with. However, in the end he could no longer take what the Prime Minister had to offer. As the Prime Minister discovered, he was, after all, too big a man to endure any more of her disloyalty to him and her contempt for his convictions.

To the credit of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, he took his letter to the Prime Minister privately, and he announced his decision to her face to face, as one would expect from a man whom we recognise to be a man of honour. That is not everyone's way, of course. Although I oppose the Prime Minister, I must say that I feel contempt for those who have fawned on her and even


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personally been favoured by her, but who now anonymously attack her. Those who snipe at the Prime Minister publicly, but then cast around for surrogates or stalking horses deserve much the same disdain, especially when they write voluminous letters of criticism and then go off to the middle east to see the Palestinians and the Israelis-- but, apparently, not to speak to any interviewers. We have a latter-day Samson Agonistes-- [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker : Order. I will not have hon. Members pointing at me like that. Let us proceed in good order.

Mr. Kinnock : There is an unusual silence from a particular quarter. As I said, we have a latter-day Samson Agonistes--speechless in Gaza. Such people deserve what they get. I think that the current term is that they are being flushed ; there never was a more apt use of the term.

The divisions in the Government in part explain their conduct this afternoon. They are divided right down the middle. I suppose that there is a kind of poetic justice in that, after all the great divisions that they have inflicted on our country in their 11 years in power. Yet, despite all the increased division that they have brought to our country, we could still hear the Prime Minister, at her conference a few weeks ago, proclaiming that she wanted to see "an open, classless Britain" ; an opportunity society. It is a completely desirable objective, of course. Indeed, I so much agree with it that I could have applauded the Prime Minister myself had I not known that she had spent the past 11 years taking Britain in exactly the opposite direction, away from the open, classless society.

When families are crushed by mortgage payments, when housing waiting lists are endless, when the cardboard cities are growing, how can the Prime Minister talk of an open, classless society? In a Britain in which family and pensioner poverty has grown wider and deeper over all these years, this certainly is not a country that is being made classless. In fact, an underclass is being created. Does an open, classless society require a poll tax that levies the same on a shop assistant as on a stockbroker? Does the unified business rate which closes businesses and crushes enterprise produce an opportunity society?

How does the Prime Minister think that she is building an opportunity society when child care provision is abysmal, when primary and secondary school classes have no teachers, when so few children over the age of 16 are staying in regular education, when higher education students are forced to live on loans, and there are universities threatened with bankruptcy? What kind of opportunity society is that?

How open can a society be when there are closures again this winter of hospital beds and hospital wards, when, due to the Government's so-called reforms, more than 4,000 beds are being taken out in order to try to balance the books? How classless is a society that has a record 1 million people on hospital waiting lists--unless, of course, they can pay for treatment?

If the Prime Minister truly wants to see what she spoke about at her conference--an open, classless Britain--why did the Government again this year refuse to restore the true value of child benefit? Any Prime Minister who truly wanted to promote a classless society would have taken the opportunity this year fully to implement community care, but the Prime Minister did not do so. She absolutely postponed it indefinitely. In the process, the Prime Minister condemned millions of her fellow citizens,


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including some of the most frail and needy and those who care for them, to continued isolation and poverty, without care, without proper support and even without respite.

Now, from the Prime Minister who speaks of wanting-- [Interruption] --a classless and opportunity society when her main instrument of economic policy-- [Interruption.] I am glad that the House is on television. The public can see just how yobbish the Conservative party is.

Mr. Speaker : Order. The House knows that here we listen to the arguments, and I ask those on the Government Benches to do just that.

Mr. Kinnock : I was asking the Prime Minister how--I hope that she will reply when she comes to speak ; she is speaking today, unlike on a previous occasion--she can even speak of wanting a classless, opportunity society when her main instrument of economic management over 11 years has been unemployment, and when once again she has resorted to policies that have brought recession? That recession is, of course, no accident. We have it from the Prime Minister herself that, in her own words, there are "uncontestable signs" that "the economy is working" in the way that the Government "wanted it to". Bankrupt companies, closed factories, reduced investment, rising unemployment are all signs of the success of policy to the Prime Minister. To us, they are evidence of gross incompetence and total failure and that view is shared by millions throughout Britain. This recession, like all recessions, will eventually come to an end ; it will taper off at some time. But it will leave behind weakness--less productive investment, fewer trained people, research cuts and more markets lost. That happened on the last occasion that the right hon. Lady brought recession to this country and it is now happening again.

We cannot afford to suffer such weaknesses at any time, but, with the completion of the single market just over 25 months away, those weaknesses are more disabling than ever. With the movement for economic and monetary union gathering impetus among the 11 other members of the European Community, the weaknesses of under-skilling, under-investment and under- performance take on extra seriousness. Even though the final form and precise process of economic and monetary union are far from fully determined, the collective will for that union is already strong and cannot be ignored. That is the truth. We do neither ourselves nor the people of this country any favours by trying to evade that will. Recognition of that reality does not mean acquiescence or submission to a process beyond our control. On the contrary, if we face reality, it means working to gain allies for our arguments for growth, accountability and regional balance right across the Community. It means working for agreements to uphold Britain's essential interests. It most certainly means that economic convergence at higher standards of performance are an essential requirement if further movement towards economic and monetary union is to be both practicable and beneficial. To accept anything less would be to accept disadvantage for Britain--and no right hon. or hon. Member could allow that.

With or without the pressures of economic and monetary union, it is vital for Britain to employ positive policies that are similar to those long used by more


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successful Community countries in education, training, transport and science. A modern Government must ensure for this country that our people and our producers have the same chances as those enjoyed by our competitors and the peoples of their countries.

Mr. Richard Tracey (Surbiton) : How does the right hon. Gentleman square these comments with his remarks in a speech two or three years ago about the single market being an abdication of responsibility and an apology for action?

Mr. Kinnock : The hon. Gentleman may want to take up that point with a few of his own right hon. and hon. Friends, because we know that the Prime Minister, who now denounces the process, is the same person who, when I spoke on that occasion, was whipping and guillotining through the House, with all the trappings, the Single European Act. That ensured that she arrived in Rome the weekend before last with total inconsistency built into her view. In 11 oil-rich years, the Conservative Government have never made, and will never make, the commitment necessary to build the productive strength of our economy by investing in people, and by supporting industrial effort--as other Governments in the European Community do. Success and strength in the Community require a partnership between industry and Government. This Government live to deny that partnership. They have a huge balance of payments deficit, high inflation, rising unemployment and falling manufacturing investment to prove those 11 years of utter waste.

Success in the Community is largely a matter of economic performance, but it is equally, and crucially, a matter of political approach. Now we have it on the very best and most experienced authority, in the evidence of the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East, that the Prime Minister very definitely does not have the right approach to change in the Community. He has let it be known that the "mood" that the Prime Minister has "struck", in his words, "most notably in Rome last month, and in the House of Commons last Tuesday, make it more difficult for Britain to hold, and retain, a position of influence in this vital debate"

about the future of the Community. That is the candid assessment of a former Foreign Secretary and deputy Prime Minister. It was not a petulant reaction to the Prime Minister. The right hon. and learned Gentleman is not built like that. On the contrary, his words and his decision were cool and deliberate--and all the more damning for that. What the right hon. and learned Gentleman said, in the most precise terms, was that the Prime Minister's conduct of affairs makes her unfit to represent us in the councils of the European Community. There could hardly be a more serious charge against the Prime Minister, coming as it does from someone whose loyalty to the Conservative party is renowned and who has been closely involved with the right hon. Lady for many years, including her European Community involvement.

Of course, the right hon. Lady is guilty as charged by the right hon. and learned Gentleman. She proved that again last Tuesday. She is incapable of making the


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alliances that Britain needs. She is incapable of making the arguments that are essential to the exercise of our influence at this time of great change.

Mr. Nicholas Bennett (Pembroke) rose--

Mr. Kinnock : Last Tuesday we saw two versions of the right hon. Lady. The first version appeared with the statement that she read, with its emollient words about

"the Community going forward as Twelve."

Doubtless, we shall see the same sort of performance from the right hon. Lady in that role this afternoon, when she reads her speech. But there was an altogether different version of the Prime Minister when she answered questions after her statement. It was that more authentic version which brought the resignation of the deputy Prime Minister, the despair of many in his party who agree with him, and the division within the Government that cannot now be healed or concealed.

Of course, there are those who will nobly try to come to the right hon. Lady's rescue. The Foreign Secretary, in his typically gallant way, did that on Monday at the Confederation of British Industry conference. He said some things that recommended themselves to all responsible and sensible people. For instance, he said :

"No one is seriously expecting Britain to submerge our Parliament into a Federal state."

He said that there is no "dread conspiracy" against us in the Community. He said :

"We can fight our corner for British interests without frightening ourselves with ogres."

Those are all rational statements.

But does the Prime Minister, who said last week that the European Commission was "striving to extinguish democracy," agree with her Foreign Secretary? Does the Prime Minister, who is fixated by what she calls

"back doors to a federal Europe,"

agree with her right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary? Of course she does not. Everything she says and does proves that she does not agree with the Foreign Secretary.

If she shared the Foreign Secretary's rational view, and if she stopped claiming that Euro-ogres were combined in "dread conspiracy" to "submerge our Parliament," she would have nothing left in her repertoire of stridency. Of course she might still have the deputy Prime Minister. Even more important, she might not have 11 other European Community countries united against her in a way--I quote the right hon. and learned Gentleman again--that

"makes it more difficult for Britain to hold, and retain, a position of influence".

To make that change--

Mr. John Butterfill (Bournemouth, West) rose --

Mr. Kinnock : No, I shall not give way, because of the time. Mr. Butterfill rose --

Mr. Speaker : Order. The Leader of the Opposition said that he was not going to give way.

Mr. Kinnock : To make that change to a rational, constructive and influential position, the Prime Minister would not have to accept federalism or anything so outlandish. To become communautaire, she would not have to be compliant in any way. Nobody else is. To accept that fact is not to "surrender"--her word. It is to face up


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to the realities of change in the European Community and then to do everything possible to shape affairs in a way that will bring maximum opportunity to Britain.

Mr. Nicholas Bennett : Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Kinnock : No, I do not intend to give way.

It is if that course is not adopted and pursued that the prospect of submission arises, as isolation brings impotence and effective exclusion from the main course of change that is already under way in the European Community and on the European continent. That way, under this Prime Minister and this Government, lies relegation to the second rank of the European Community. That is understood not only in the House but by the majority of the British people. They are not given to celebrating the process of European development in any demonstrative way, but they most certainly do not want to be left out of it. [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker : Order. I ask hon. Members not to point across the Chamber but to listen, please, to the arguments. That is how we conduct our business.


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