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House of Commons
Friday 30 October 1992
The House met at half-past Nine o'clock
PRAYERS
[Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]
PETITION
School Crossing (Greenford)
9.34 am
Mr. Harry Greenway (Ealing, North) : I beg to present a petition, which reads :
To the honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled. The humble petition of Friends of Costons combined school and of Betham Church of England Middle and First schools and others sheweth--
That the crossing on Greenford road adjacent to Cowgate road-- in Greenford in my constituency--
and the Greenford Ambulance Station is regularly used by children from the above schools ;
That the current zebra crossing does not provide adequate safety for pedestrians, particularly children, when crossing the Greenford road given the volume and speed of traffic on the road.
That the the creation of a pelican crossing in this position would provide pedestrians with sufficient time to cross in safety. The crossing is dangerous to parents and children, and especially to elderly and disabled people from Pennifather lane in Greenford. The crossing needs to be upgraded to pelican status as a mater of great urgency.
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The petition was raised by Miss Debbie Gorge of 19 Ravenor court, Ruislip road, Greenford and Mrs. Jane Withs of Elm lodge, Cowgate road, Greenford, and is signed by 810 people. The petition has my wholehearted support. It concludes :Wherefore your petitioners pray that your honourable House will urge the Secretary of State for Transport to facilitate the introduction of a pelican crossing on Greenford road adjacent to Cowgate road and the Greenford Ambulance Station,
with a view to ending the accidents and deaths which are occurring too frequently on that crossing.
And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.
To lie upon the Table.
PRESENTATION OF BILL
Education
Mr. Secretary Patten, supported by the Prime Minister, Mr. Secretary Clarke, Mr. Secretary Heseltine, Mr. Secretary Hunt, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Mr. Eric Forth and Mr. Nigel Forman, presented a Bill to amend the law about education : And the same was read the First time ; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 71.]
Dr. Robert Spink (Castle Point) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. May I present a petition?
Madam Speaker : I am sorry. Apparently the hon. Gentleman's petition was down for last night, which he probably did not realise. If he will leave the petition, I am sure that we can look at it next week.
Dr. Spink : May I therefore formally present the petition on another day? I did ask for the petition to be presented today.
Madam Speaker : I am sorry if there has been any confusion. The hon. Gentleman will be able to present the petition on another day.
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Sport
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.-- [Mr. Lightbown.]
9.36 am
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for National Heritage (Mr. Robert Key) : I warmly welcome this opportunity to open what I hope will be a constructive and wide-ranging debate on sport. The Government take their commitment to promoting sport in the United Kingdom very seriously. Much of what I have to say in principle cuts across home country boundaries. Hon. Members will appreciate that, while my Department addresses sports issues on behalf of the United Kingdom internationally, domestically we have specific responsibility for sports policy in England.
The Government's belief in sport as important in its own right and as part of our national culture was exemplified by the creation of the new Department of National Heritage. Sport can only gain from being seen in a wider and more integrated cultural and leisure context. Our objective is simple : it is to enrich the quality of life of the whole population. In this, sport can play a key role in improving the quality of our daily life and of our health, as well as being a central feature of our national heritage and the modern leisure industry. As such, it is high on the list of priorities of the new Department.
The sports world has welcomed the new Department and the voice in Cabinet which it now has. Local authorities have welcomed the better dialogue which their leisure service and related departments now have with Government. We are keen to foster those links, as local authorities are the primary providers or enablers of many of the services for which the Department is responsible.
I will stress during the debate the importance of new partnerships, such as the one I saw taking shape in the south-west of England when I was recently in Exeter. The Sports Council in the south-west and the regional tourist board for the west country introduced their initiative on tourism and sport. It is clear that tourists wish to take more active holidays, so here is an natural new partnership. Similarly, in the east midlands I recently met representatives of the regional tourist board, the Sports Council and the regional arts board, all of which were working together to produce new partnerships to their mutual benefit.
The Government's main objectives for sport were set in last December's statement on "Sport and Active Recreation." In summary these were to secure physical education in the national curriculum and make sure pupils regularly took exercise and played sport ; to promote adult participation in sport and active recreation, where appropriate supporting provision of facilities ; to help everyone better his own performance, at whatever level of participation, and to enable the truly gifted to excel. Other objectives were to promote better use of local authority and school sports facilities, and private sector partnerships in providing and managing them ; to promote sport for disabled persons and the integration of able-bodied and disabled sports activities wherever possible ; to promote fair play, and a tough anti-doping regime ; and to make sure that the excellence of United Kingdom sport is promoted internationally.
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To these might be added the transfer of a Home Office responsibility to the new Department. This is to ensure the safety of our sports grounds and in particular the achievement of all- seating at our Premier League and first division football grounds by August 1994, and all-seating or safe terracing at our third and fourth division grounds by August 1999.Let me reassure hon. Members that I do not intend to spend the rest of this speech ploughing through what we are doing to implement each of these objectives in turn. Nor do I want to repeat what was said last year about the very substantial increase in sports provision during the 1980s. Rather, I should like to highlight a number of measures that the Government are taking forward and to which I attach particular importance.
The Government believe in creating the right framework and opportunities within which sports organisations have the freedom to provide what they consider is appropriate and individuals have the chance to participate and excel in sport. We do not believe in centrally imposed blueprints or day-to -day political interference in sport. In line with this approach, last December's sports policy statement confirmed that the principle of channelling Government assistance for sport through the sports councils as independent but accountable bodies remained sound, but made it clear that the structure was in need of reform.
Following that statement, we are establishing a United Kingdom sports commission capable of addressing strategically United Kingdom-wide issues. These will include promoting performance and excellence, fostering the rationalisation of sports governing bodies, and representing the United Kingdom internationally. A sports council for England is also to be created. For the first time, we shall have a body with express responsibility for English sporting matters. Within this new structure, the regional councils for sport and recreation will continue to play an important role. The regional chairman will sit ex officio on the sports council for England together with a representative from the Central Council for Physical Recreation and a number of independent members. This involvement of the RCSRs on the new council should greatly improve co- ordination of regional efforts. These councils bring together such local interests as local authorities, voluntary organisations and regional branches of governing bodies. Their membership includes ministerial nominees, and I am delighted at the constructive and independent contribution that they have made to the work of these councils.
We had our first conference of ministerial nominees only last month. They really are independent--there is no party politics in their appointment. Their names are suggested as those of people who will be of independent mind and expertise in their regions and sports. The ministerial element lies in the fact that they have a hot line to me from all the regions of the country. That is to be welcomed.
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) : One of the bodies that the Minister failed to mention is the Coal Industry Social Welfare Organisation, known as CISWO. When I played football and cricket and took part in various sports as a miner, we were able to play on the colliery grounds. Now another 31 pits are to be shut. We have had one hell of a job trying to look after these grounds when mines have been closed in the past. Local authorities have been given
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the opportunity to purchase those areas, but now they are prevented from doing so because they are strapped for cash.I want the sports Minister to tell the President of the Board of Trade and other Ministers that they should not go along with shutting 31 pits, because if they do so they will help to close 31 sporting organisations in pit villages. The Minister can do a better job today ; he can save a lot of sporting facilities by having a word with the people who are threatening to close these pits.
Mr. Key : The hon. Gentleman is right to raise this important issue. He and I have had discussions across the Floor of the House on a number of occasions, and knowing me as he does, he will appreciate that I have already thought of the very point that he has raised. The Government do recognise the importance of social welfare arrangements, including sports facilities for the people who live and work in the coalfield communities. I recognise their important contribution ever since the Mining Industry Act 1920, followed by the Miners' Welfare Act 1952, which made the Coal Industry Social Welfare Organisation responsible for the provision of social welfare, including sports facilities. under the Act the National Coal Board, now British Coal, was required to fund the CISWO, and it does so by means of a levy on coal production.
In view of what has happened, I undertake to give consideration to the future arrangements for coal industry social welfare, including its funding. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising the issue--
Mr. Skinner : What are you doing about it?
Mr. Key : If the hon. Gentleman had listened to me instead of talking to the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell)- - [Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes) : Order. Seated interventions are to be deplored, particularly when the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) has already made a lengthy intervention on his feet.
Mr. Skinner : He has not answered my question.
Mr. Key : The hon. Gentleman is determined not to listen to me, which is a pity, because his constituents might gain from it.
Mr. Nick Hawkins (Blackpool) : While my hon. Friend is dealing with regional assistance, will he accept that those in my constituency and throughout the north-west greatly appreciate the strong support that the Government are giving to the Manchester Olympic bid? When the bid succeeds, a great many visitors will stay in hotels in my constituency. This will strengthen sport in the north-west and help Blackpool's historic reputation as a sporting town.
Mr. Key : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Manchester--the British--Olympic bid for the games in the year 2000 will have an enormously significant effect on the whole north-west, including Blackpool. My hon. Friend is right to point out the importance of Blackpool as an accommodation centre for the Olympic games, when, not if, they take place in 2000 in the north-west.
The Manchester Olympic bid committee has been consulting accommodation interests throughout the
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north-west. I shall draw to the attention of Bob Scott, the chairman of the bid, the points that my hon. Friend has made, for which I am grateful.The Government have also welcomed the formation of the British Sports Forum by the voluntary sports associations in all four home countries, together with the British Olympic Association. I am aware of the reservations which the CCPR has expressed about the new body. However, it is clearly in the interests of sport as a whole that there is a united voice of the voluntary sector both domestically and internationally to complement the work of the United Kingdom Sports Commission.
However sound the new structure, it can only be as effective as the individuals in it. I am concerned that there are so few young faces among the ranks of our senior sports administrators. This wealth of experience needs to be complemented by the dynamism of youth to provide the leadership which sport deserves in both the public and voluntary sectors. I intend to explore with the Great Britain Sports Council and others ways of encouraging more of our sporting stars to become involved in sports administration. We need to develop a systematic career path in sports administration.
Quality of management and leadership is vital. That is not an ageist remark. I often hear people who have been leading British sport at all levels say that they think that they have done the job long enough and asking who will take over from them if they give up--a question that we will seek to answer.
Mr. Menzies Campbell (Fife, North-East) : Does the Minister recognise that ethnic minorities are poorly represented among the administrators of sport, the more so given the extent to which they contribute to our sporting teams, particularly the Olympic team? Is it not high time people of an ethnic background were represented at the highest level in the administration of sport?
Mr. Key : I warmly welcome that intervention. I could not agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman more, particularly in respect of his point about our Olympic excellence. It is not true to say that those from the ethnic minorities who excel at sport are not taking part in the administration and future policy-making in sport. They are taking part in a most energetic way in several areas. However, I take the hon. and learned Gentleman's point, and we will seek to address it in a sensible and appropriate manner.
When I was a schoolboy, I took it for granted that I could participate in cricket, rugger, hockey, swimming and sailing, all of which I did at school, as did my fellow pupils, as a matter of course. When I was a teacher for 16 happy years, I took it for granted that I would be expected to umpire and referee, judge athletics, organise sports and visiting teams and take pupils away to other schools.
Sadly, those days have gone, and I regret that very much. That means that we must try harder to ensure the highest standards of sport in schools and the availability of sport inside and outside schools. I will be discussing issues with my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools about the interface between his responsibilities and mine in respect of sport in schools.
Having put in place the right structure, we also need to lay the foundations of participation in sport and future
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success. That is why the Government believe so strongly that all young children should have the opportunity to learn basic sports skills.In England and Wales, we have made physical education a compulsory part of the school curriculum for pupils aged five to 16. Similarly, we believe in the importance of pupils being taught to swim by the age of 11, because that is a vital life-saving skill. That is to be made a requirement in England and Wales from autumn 1994.
Mr. John Carlisle (Luton, North) : While my hon. Friend is referring to school sports, will he comment on the new Education Bill which will come before this House on Monday week, and the apparent new initiative that grant-maintained schools will possibly put aside 10 per cent. of their places for pupils who show excellence in the arts and sport? Many of us interested in sport would welcome that. Youngsters with sporting ability, but perhaps without academic ability, will be able to obtain an excellent education and perhaps have some advantage that they would not have enjoyed under the old system.
Mr. Key : I recognise that my hon. Friend has a long record of interest in sporting matters. I cannot comment on a Bill that is to come before the House, but I welcome the thrust of his comments. All our schools, including grant-maintained schools, will make it a priority that sport is a chief aim in the rounded education of our young people.
I am sure that all hon. Members will agree that the role of PE teachers cannot be overestimated in developing the sporting skills of their pupils within the curriculum and in after-school sporting opportunities. Without their commitment and enthusiasm, we can achieve very little. In addition to the professionals, we must bear in mind the vast army of teachers, parents and volunteers who assist with sports for young people in schools and beyond every afternoon and at the weekends. Without them, Britain would not have its worldwide reputation for excellence in sport and access to sport that is so admired around the world.
We are keen to encourage more after-school sporting opportunities. The champion coaching scheme has been a great success in improving the sporting skills of the youngsters who participated, in encouraging new local partnerships and in providing models of good practice for other organisations to emulate. Preparations for phase 2 are now well under way. Partly arising from that experience, we will be publishing a booklet.
Mr. Harry Greenway (Ealing, North) : Will my hon. Friend address the champion coaching scheme at greater length, bearing in mind the fact that it reaches 4,000 pupils out of a pupil population of 8 million? We are not getting to the main body of pupils, and that will not do.
Mr. Key : My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to our modest start, but we have to start somewhere. We have started with champion coaching which has been a huge success. As I have said, phase 2 is under way. The scheme has proved by its popularity that there is greater scope for it to grow, and I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree that that must be our objective.
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Dr. Robert Spink (Castle Point) : Does my hon. Friend welcome the additional £1.3 million made available to the champion coaching scheme by the Foundation for Sport and the Arts?
Mr. Key : The Foundation for Sport and the Arts has made a huge contribution to the sporting life of this country and I will refer to it specifically later. My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the fact that the foundation has contributed substantially to the scheme. I warmly welcome that and my hon. Friend's intervention. As I was saying, we shall publish a booklet early next year designed to encourage more local youth sport partnerships between schools and colleges and a range of other local organisations including sports clubs, local businesses, local authorities and the youth service.
Building on those foundations, we are very lucky in this country to have such an excellent and extensive voluntary sector that can carry through participation in sport into adult life. The dedication and drive of thousands of largely unpaid club officials, coaches and ground staff is the bedrock of the voluntary sector. That is essential to the quality of sports participation in this country and to improving the performance of our sportsmen and women, thereby providing the basis for sporting excellence and success.
My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has begun a new era of openness in government, which allows me to point out that I am a member of the Cabinet committee on health strategy. The Government will also be promoting participation in sport and improving the quality of that participation by implementing the commitment contained in the "Health of the Nation" White Paper to look at ways of increasing levels of physical fitness.
Despite the significant increases in participation in sport and active recreation in recent years, as recorded by the general household survey, overall levels of cardio-respiratory fitness in the population are unacceptably low. That is why the Government, with the help of such organisations as the Great Britain Sports Council and the Health Education Authority, are looking at the feasibility of setting physical activity targets and ways in which policies might need to be formulated to meet them.
Local authorities have an important role in encouraging and providing for that growth in participation in sport. It is essential that we make better use of our sport and leisure facilities, of which there has been a very substantial growth during the past 20 years. Central to making effective use of that investment are the managers who control programming, presentation and pricing of activities. Two initiatives that the Government have been pursuing which should help assist in the promotion of more efficient, effective and accountable management in our local authority sports facilities are compulsory competitive tendering and the citizens charter.
Before March, I had the advantage of being a local government finance Minister. I made the acquaintance of many local authorities, and saw at first hand the contribution that they were making and the way in which they carried out their commitments and their voluntary policy objectives. I also learnt a good deal more about CCT. I became convinced that the great virtue of CCT was not just that it provided better value for money for the taxpayer, but that, for the first time--too often, for the first time--it ensured that those who were providing
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sporting facilities and management knew what they were trying to achieve and how they were going to achieve it. Of course, the best had already been doing that, but too often the others had not. The great virtue of the CCT system, whatever one may think about it in party political terms, is that it encouraged a new discipline in the provision of sporting facilities. Local authorities were required to submit the first 35 per cent. by value of their sport and leisure facilities by 1 January 1992, a further 35 per cent. by August 1992 and the remaining figure by 1 January 1993. Any assessment at this stage can therefore only be preliminary, and we would expect savings to come through later. However, there is already little doubt on the evidence available to us so far that CCT has succeeded in stimulating a positive review of local authority practices and improved efficiency in leisure management.I hope that all local authorities are by now well aware of the six key principles of the charter standard under the citizens charter. They are published standards of service ; customer views to be taken into account in setting those standards ; clear information about the range of services to be provided ; courteous and efficient customer service ; well signposted avenues for complaint with independent review wherever possible ; independent validation of performance against standards and a clear commitment to improving value for money. Swale borough council leisure department, Wandsworth borough council leisure and amenities service and Omagh leisure centre in Northern Ireland are to be congratulated on their recent charter mark awards.
There are a number of other ways in which better quality management is being encouraged and in which I am pleased to say the Sports Council is playing an important part.
Through the British Quality Association, the Sports Council is co- ordinating work to identify and agree high standards of service delivery across all sectors of the sport and recreation management industry. BS5750 is an internationally recognised British standard describing a system of management to ensure the consistent delivery of a quality service. Managers in sport and recreation have been quick to grasp that opportunity, and the first facilities have been assessed and accredited by the British Standards Institute in Omagh, Newcastle, the London borough of Bexley and the City Centre Leisure, in Westminster, a new private contractor in the field.
The Sports Council has continued to support the development of the Institute of Leisure and Amenity Management to provide for the professional training and development of the whole range of leisure managers.
The most important and fundamental development, however, will be the introduction of national vocational qualifications due to be launched on 11 November in the sport and recreation field. The new qualification and occupational standards should provide a framework for the development and training of staff and volunteers in the sport and recreation industry on a par with opportunities in all other sectors of the United Kingdom economy.
That initiative has encouraged a new unity. A new education and training consortium has emerged involving the sports councils, the professional bodies, National Coaching Foundation, British Sports Forum, the Central Council for Physical Recreation, the Welsh and Scottish
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sports associations and others to work towards the implementation of NVQs and to provide a co-ordinated approach to training and to support their take-up.I know that concerns have been expressed over the decline in expenditure by local authorities on sport and recreation over the past two years. Although levels of capital expenditure on those services have declined since 1989- 90, that was an exceptional year caused by authorities' spending from accumulated capital receipts before the introduction of the new capital finance system in April 1990. In real terms, the estimated outturn for 1991 -92 was more than 10 per cent. higher than capital expenditure on those services in 1986-87 both in gross and net--that is, less capital receipts-- terms. I said earlier that there is scope for local authorities to work imaginatively in partnerships with the private sector in enabling sports and leisure facilities to be built, rather than looking to the taxpayer to fund those developments.
Some local authorities may have assumed that the private sector merely wants to take over their sports and leisure centres through CCT. Major companies in the private sector have been telling me that they are keen to participate in partnerships with the public sector to provide new sports and leisure facilities, particularly of course, if, as part of the arrangement, they can secure the development of a commercially attractive leisure element. It is not always appropriate, but it may be helpful if I give two examples of the type of partnership that can be achieved.
Milton Keynes development corporation with the help of commercial leisure operators, has secured the development of a major facility, including an ice rink. The commercial operator provided a 30-lane ten-pin bowling centre, a Quasar space laser game, a night club and a cafe and bar. It also built an Olympic standard ice arena for the local community. The whole complex is managed by the commercial leisure operator.
The value of the ice arena to the local community has been enormous. It is used by more than 500,000 people per year and is home to the MK Kings ice hockey team. The MK Kings are in the Heineken division 1 and they attract between 1,500 to 2,000 spectators at their 32 home games each season. Players from MK Kings visit schools and encourage children to take up skating. Schools also use the ice rink for PE sessions.
Colchester borough council wished to refurbish a traditional 1960s sports centre. As part of the funding for the new schemes, two sites were let on long leases to a commercial leisure operator, a ten-pin bowling centre and a fast-food restaurant. The premium of £1.2 million raised from that partnership with the private sector was used to fund the community facilities in what was called Leisure World'. That comprises a 25 m competition pool, with spectator seating, a leisure pool, a sports hall, sauna world, a multi-purpose hall for use by the performing arts, and an outdoor all-weather pitch. I know that hon. Members are bound to raise the 50 per cent. capital receipts rule. That rule does not, of course, apply to the replacement of like for like under the "in and out" arrangements allowed, subject to certain conditions--that is, regulation 18 of the capital finance regulations. Those arrangements are outlined in the Department of the Environment circular 11/90 on local authority capital finance and have been used to pay for new major sports facilities such as the new Guildford Spectrum sports and
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leisure facility. Another source of funding for sports facilities is the Foundation for Sport and the Arts, which provides £40 million a year for sport. That is extra money.Mr. Tom Cox (Tooting) : I have great respect for the Minister. No doubt what he is saying is a reflection of what is happening, but it is not the true picture. Over the past week, two letters have come to me from the Methodist Church and from the Greater London Central Scout Council. They complain bitterly that they cannot get the funds to do the work that they have long been doing. I hope that the Minister will address those real problems which affect many hon. Members.
Mr. Key : I shall indeed. In fact, I have just started to address them in my remarks about the Foundation for Sport and the Arts, and I shall return to them when I discuss the national lottery, which may be another source of help.
The grants awarded by the foundation range from large amounts of more than £1 million, to help to redevelop stadiums of national importance, to £500 to enable small clubs to replace equipment. The FSA has also provided substantial sums of money for coaching, sport in schools, sport for the disabled, the British Olympic team and paralympic team, and the Manchester Olympic bid, as well as making numerous grants to sports clubs and sporting bodies.
Let me tell the hon. Member for Tooting (Mr. Cox) how a community that I know well--the village of Winterslow in Wiltshire--approached those problems. It needed a new village hall with some sporting facilities. In a most remarkable achievement, it raised nearly £250, 000 among the 3,000 people who live in the village of Winterslow. That money was raised by help from the Foundation for Sports and the Arts, through the sports councils, local authorities, local fund raising and indeed a village referendum which raised £60,000 to be paid off over 20 years under the community charge regulations. There are ways in which small communities can raise large sums of money. In the world of football, our facilities have been transformed, partly with the benefit of moneys made available by the reduction in pool betting duty in the 1990 Budget. That can be seen most clearly in the replacement of former terraced areas with seated accommodation and in the construction of new all-seated stands. In that, in addition to the invaluable role of the Football Trust, the Football Licensing Authority and the Football Stadia Advisory Design Council have also played an important part.
There are many other important but less obvious ways in which the safety of spectators has been increased since publication of the Taylor report. For example, great strides have been taken to improve the standard of stewarding provided at many grounds. In addition, the provision of ground plans on the rear of tickets and the painting of emergency exit gates in a distinctive colour are now taken for granted at many grounds.
There is much work still to be done. In the Taylor report there were recommendations for design to assist disabled people's access to our sporting grounds, and that has been a great success, too.
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Mr. Nigel Spearing (Newham, South) : The Minister will appreciate the hard work that has been done by my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Pendry), who, until recently, was the chairman of the all-party football committee, in his report on all-seated stadiums. Does the Minister agree that, paradoxically, all-seated stadiums cause great problems for some of the larger and more successful clubs? I instance, obviously, West Ham in Newham, which has a high proportion of standing spectators to seated spectators. The changeover is a financial problem, which is not susceptible to some of the solutions that the Conservative party might advocate.
Do we not need more consideration of ways in which we can retain standing accommodation that is equally as safe as seated accommodation? Of course, standing with one's friends has its own attraction. Will the Minister accept our thanks for his flexibility, but keep up the work and maintain the flexibility that he has already shown?
Mr. Key : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for those remarks. I am also grateful for the work of the all-party committee. We listened carefully to its advice. The hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde and my hon. Friends who are members of that committee have more than once discussed the issue with us. I take the hon. Gentleman's point about the need for flexibility, but we must not be deflected from our aims of providing not only safer football grounds but an improved quality of ground. People are beginning to expect a higher quality. That usually means seating, and more comfortable seating at that. Of course I have listened carefully to what the hon. Gentleman said. I am aware that there is still strong feeling on the issue, and I shall continue to listen to those representations, notwithstanding our determination to ensure that safety is a prime objective.
Mr. John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) : I hope to deal with safety in my speech. Will the Minister say something about the problems facing football clubs, including Southampton? The problem is not so much financial ; the length of planning delays and the difficulties in planning procedures make it impossible for clubs to meet the demands of the Taylor report, even though they and the local city council have made every effort to do so. Will he talk to the Football Licensing Authority about exercising its discretion more widely where it is convinced that everyone is acting with good will but there are inevitable delays?
Mr. Key : Southampton has made its views clear on the issue. Only last month, I visited Fratton park to discuss with Portsmouth its problems, which are similar but slightly different in detail. It is true that, with the best will in the world, football clubs find it difficult to meet the deadline of 1994. Therefore, it is important that the Football Licensing Authority should be prepared to be flexible where there is a clear intention to complete the work but practical difficulties arise which are not of the making of the clubs, such as planning delays, to which the hon. Gentleman referred. On 21 September, the chief executive of the Football Licensing Authority wrote to Brian Hunt, the director of Southampton football club. If the hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham) has not seen the letter, I am sure that he will be able to do so. The Football Licensing Authority said that it would be sensible and
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reasonable about the matter. It would try to ensure that the club met the deadline, but it would be flexible if it received answers to questions such as : has the club received detailed planning permission? Has the site been acquired? Has the design of the stadium and related facilities been finalised and approved by all relevant authorities? Has the necessary financial package been secured? Has the contract to complete the stadium been let? Has work started on the site or has a start date been settled? Has a firm date for completion been fixed? Are there safeguards against delays? Has the disposal of the existing site been agreed?That is a reasonably flexible approach. I gave a copy of the letter to the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde about a week ago. We agree that this is a reasonable approach to an undoubtedly difficult problem.
Mr. Anthony Coombs (Wyre Forest) : We all appreciate the work that the Football Trust does both in implementing the Taylor report and in improving safety in sports grounds. One of the clubs in my constituency is Kidderminster Harriers, which is a Vauxhall conference league club of great distinction. One of the league's great desires is that it should have access to Football Trust funds to bring the stadiums up to the standards required for the frequently substantial crowd numbers at the league's matches. The average for Kidderminster Harriers is about 1,200 people a week. That is significantly in excess of the crowds at some of the third division football club matches.
Will the Minister tell us something about the progress of negotiations between the Football Trust and the GM Vauxhall conference league on that matter?
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