House of Commons Hansard Debates for 17 Nov 1992

Hansard

House of Commons

Tuesday 17 November 1992

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]

PRIVATE BUSINESS

Llanelli Borough (River Lliedi) Bill

[Lords] Read the Third time, and passed.

Oral Answers to Questions

EDUCATION

Teacher Training Colleges

1. Mr. Hawkins : To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will make a statement indicating Her Majesty's Government's firm proposals for the reform of teacher training colleges.

The Secretary of State for Education (Mr. John Patten) : There is continuing unease and concern about the quality of some initial teacher training, which centres on whether some of the producers--the universities and colleges responsible for the training--are providing what the consumers --the schools--will need to achieve, which is higher standards. I announced in June a decisive shift to more school-based training for secondary teachers, following advice from the Council for the Accreditation of Teacher Education. My aim now is to make the training of primary teachers more school based and more closely related to the needs of schools and the requirements of the national curriculum.

Mr. Hawkins : I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. His steps to make teacher training more school based will be welcomed especially by employers in my constituency and, I am sure, throughout the country. Will he consider going further and ensuring that all potential teachers, as part of their training, spend some time working with employers and finding out what it is like for people who work in personnel departments so as to ensure that they are aware of employers' needs in terms of the quality of products of secondary education?

Mr. Patten : That is a very interesting suggestion and I should like to take it up with members of the Confederation of British Industry and the Institute of Directors, with whom I have not discussed it before. A number of schools and groups of schools have told me that they would like to be put in sole charge of teacher training as they believe that they could do at least as good a job as many teacher training colleges in training young teachers at the chalk face.

Mr. Pickthall : Can the Secretary of State assure the House that a circular on changes to teacher education in

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the primary sector will be issued in the near future and that the consultation period--unlike that for circular 9/92 on the secondary sector--will be sufficient to allow colleges to plan for a smooth transition and to allow for proper consultation? Will he also assure the House that there will be no dilution of teacher education for the primary sector by reducing the subject content so as to make courses shorter and cheaper?

Mr. Patten : I welcome the hon. Gentleman's last question : I want primary school teacher training to be more rigorous, not less, and everything that we do will be to that end. I was slightly surprised to hear the hon. Gentleman suggest that the consultation period allowed for in the circular on secondary school teacher training was inadequate. That circular was widely welcomed--so widely, indeed, that I rather doubted the wisdom of the decision that I had taken. I shall take a decision on primary education as soon as possible. I am awaiting further advice from the National Curriculum Council and Her Majesty's chief inspector of schools.

European Drug Prevention Week

2. Mr. Faber : To ask the Secretary of State for Education what role his Department will be playing in European Drug Prevention Week.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Mr. Eric Forth) : We are publishing tomorrow a revised and updated version ofthe booklet, "Drug Misuse and the Young" to help education professionals to prevent and respond to drug misuse by young people. We are also funding a series of regional conferences for 14 to 19-year-olds to look at approaches and appropriate strategies to counter the harmful effects on health from drug misuse and to focus on healthy life styles.

Mr. Faber : I thank my hon. Friend for that reply and warmly welcome his Department's involvement in European Drug Prevention Week. It is a sad fact nowadays that drugs are increasingly available in schools, in the playground and at the school gate, and that the problem is increasingly affecting rural areas as well as inner cities and, tragically, primary as well as secondary schools. Will my hon. Friend continue to inform teachers of the problems to look out for and the steps to take early on to try to help children to avoid the dreadful scourge of drug abuse?

Mr. Forth : Indeed, and I commend to my hon. Friend and to the House the excellent booklet to be published tomorrow as it does most of what my hon. Friend asks. It is designed to help teachers and those working with young people to stop youngsters misusing drugs in any way possible. It outlines the part that the education service can play in prevention and gives specific advice, for example, on dealing with emergencies. It summarises the laws on drug abuse and provides a short factual account of the main types of drugs and their effects. I believe that it will be widely read and used and will be of great help in dealing with a most difficult and distressing problem.

Mr. Don Foster : Given the excellent work on drugs prevention by the health education co-ordinators, will the Minister reconsider his decision to end their grant from

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March 1993? If not, can he say what progress has been made on seeking joint funding with his colleagues at the Department of Health and the Home Office?

Mr. Forth : I have, of course, met representatives of the advisers and had discussions with them about the issue. I have undertaken to look into the very matter that the hon. Gentleman raises. I must stress some important aspects of which the hon. Gentleman will be aware. For instance, the funding of the initiative was always designed to be of limited duration. It was always understood that the responsibility for continuation would eventually come to rest--rightly, in my view--with the local education authorities. Since its inception great changes have taken place, not least that we now have embedded in the curriculum important elements-- dealing with drugs, with substance abuse and with healthy life styles-- which go a long way to dealing with the problem, so we can look forward to the future with some confidence in dealing with the whole area.

Mr. Rathbone : While welcoming the steps that the Department is taking in support of European Drug Prevention Week, which got off to an extremely good start with a conference this morning, may I add my emphasis to the question asked by the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Foster). When Home Office and Department of Health initiatives are given initial pump-priming finance, should not Government financial support continue while the troubles continue, as it is unlikely that local authorities will be able to find the funding to which the Minister refers?

My hon. Friend referred to the curriculum, but is he aware that the subject ranks very low in the curriculum and that individual schools will give priority to many other subjects well in advance of what he believes that the whole question of drug prevention should receive?

Mr. Forth : I am well aware of the long-standing, knowledgeable and dedicated interest that my hon. Friend takes in this whole area. He has made my right hon. Friend and me well aware of that frequently in recent months. I assure him that I acknowledge his position on the matter. I must ask him to appreciate, however, that when pump-priming money is provided and there is a clear understanding that at some stage it will have to come to an end and responsibility will have to pass on, it is not unreasonable for a Government Department to look at the matter in exactly that way. I believe that we now have sufficient experience of what has been done in the matter--and we have seen a sufficient change in circumstances and background--to justify the decision that we took, after careful consideration and with great difficulty, some time ago.

I cannot agree with my hon. Friend's view--"denigration" would be too strong a word--that somehow the position of the matter in the curriculum is a lowly one. The subject has an important and focal position in the curriculum and it is a matter to which all involved with the curriculum must give their fullest attention. That will be of great force in the years to come in helping young people in the education process to understand the nature of drugs and to help them to avoid abusing them.

Mrs. Ann Taylor : Does the Minister realise that his complacency will be alarming to many parents and teachers who are seriously worried about the drugs problem? Has not his Department stopped the £5 million

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grant to local authorities which was specifically for drug prevention? Will the Minister reconsider that budget? Unless local authorities are properly funded, the work will not continue and more of our children will fall foul of drug and solvent abuse.

Mr. Forth : I know that you, Madam Speaker, deplore excessive repetition and I should be guilty of that if I answered the hon. Lady in exactly the same way as I answered the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Foster) and my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Mr. Rathbone). As the hon. Lady asked exactly the same question, however, so as not to be out of order I shall not repeat the reply.

Student Loans

3. Mr. Pike : To ask the Secretary of State for Education what information he has regarding the take-up rate of student loans in the current university year.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Mr. Nigel Forman) : As at 13 November, 115,770 students had applied for a loanfor the current academic year.

Mr. Pike : Does the Minister accept that all independent advice shows that there is a high level of overdrafts and bank loans, in addition to student loans, and real hardship in the student population? Will the Government admit that they have got it wrong on student loans, scrap them and go back to a proper system of grants?

Mr. Forman : The Government have no intention of scrapping student loans. They are a useful additional facility for students. There can be no generalised hardship because in the past four years for which we have figures--including the last academic year--fewer than two fifths of all students took up student loans.

Mr. Pawsey : Does my hon. Friend agree that if student loans were as unpopular as the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Pike) implies, there would be fewer students in advanced education? Will my hon. Friend confirm that the number of students has increased from fewer than 700,000 to substantially more than 1 million and that the figures show that where previously one in eight people in the target group went into advanced education, now one in four does so?

Mr. Forman : My hon. Friend is right. During the period that student loans have been available, student participation in higher education has increased by one fifth. It is still rising and is due to rise by a further 13 per cent. in the next three years.

Mr. Steinberg : Is the Minister aware that student loans have not been taken up because many students are not prepared to put themselves into further debt? Is he further aware that a master at one of the colleges in my constituency told me that he had overhead a conversation between students with rich parents saying that they intended to use a student loan to go on a skiing holiday?

Mr. Forman : It is always unwise to rely on hearsay and overheard conversations. The conditions and terms of student loans through the Student Loans Company are the best deal in town and the most attractive form of finance available to students who wish to take out a loan.

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Mr. Batiste : Is my hon. Friend aware that many students have taken out loans when they would not otherwise have wished to do so because a handful of local authorities, mostly Labour controlled, have been appallingly late in delivering their grants to them? Will he monitor the position carefully this year and ensure that there is no repetition of that problem?

Mr. Forman : Indeed, we pay very close attention to such matters. It is regrettable that many local authorities, especially Labour-controlled authorities, are slow in dealing with mandatory awards. We monitor the position carefully and we shall take swift action to deal with any abuses which arise.

Mr. Rooker : Does the Minister accept that for well-off students and families a student loan is a damned sight cheaper than using a credit card for a holiday and that that is an abuse of the system? Will he confirm that the Student Loans Company is seeking the services of debt collection agencies but so far has been unable to find anyone to do the work? Will he assure the House that if debt collection agencies are employed it will be done by competitive tendering and that in the interests of open government a list of agencies prepared to carry out such work will be placed in Hansard ?

Mr. Forman : I have every confidence in Mr. Young and his team at the Student Loans Company. Their record has been very good. Their administrative costs are low and their record on getting payments in is extremely good.

Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman : Does my hon. Friend accept that those loans are much appreciated by the students of Lancaster university, 825 of whom have taken them up? Moreover, 10 people apply to Lancaster university for every place that is vacant. Could that be because of the wide range of imaginative research carried out there, the latest of which is on how to adapt military technology to civilian purposes in Russia--a project known as "swords into ploughshares"?

Mr. Forman : I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for her sterling support of the university of Lancaster. I have visited that university, the records of which show how excellent it is.

National Curriculum

5. Mr. Robathan : To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will report on the progress of the implementation of the national curriculum.

Mr. Patten : The final subjects in the national curriculum--art, music and physical education--were introduced on time in September this year. That is in line with the timetable that we set in 1989 and have kept to ever since.

Mr. Robathan : I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that answer. Will he further confirm that he has no intention of stopping the testing of seven-years-olds in our primary schools?

Mr. Patten : I have absolutely no intention whatever of stopping the successful tests of seven-year-olds in our schools. A very few people, harking back to the outdated theories of the 1960s which did so much damage to education in this country, have suggested that we should

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get rid of tests for seven-year-olds. What do they have to hide or to fear? We shall continue with the tests and we shall continue to see an improvement, for which I am grateful to the many hard-working school teachers. Her Majesty's inspectors of schools have said that last year's tests showed a marked improvement over those of the year before and that teachers had higher expectations of their pupils. The tests are excellent and much appreciated by parents.

Mr. Alfred Morris : Does the Minister agree that the pace of implementation of the national curriculum may depend in part on the Government's decisions about capital expenditure for 1993-94? With its huge problems of schools with basic needs, can we expect a generous settlement for Manchester?

Mr. Patten : On capital expenditure for maintaining schools, following last year's 15 per cent. increase in the amount of money available for schools, this year we have maintained the level of the capital programme. I recognise that implementation of the national curriculum is not always easy for our hard-working teachers, but I am glad that there is at least bipartisan agreement that the national curriculum introduced by the Conservatives is supported by both sides of the House.

Mr. Richards : How much money have local education authorities received in grants to help implement the national curriculum, and has that money been used to good effect?

Mr. Patten : Each year we have been giving several hundred million pounds to local education authorities, both in England and in Wales, my hon. Friend's area, to help implement the national curriculum. The fruits of some of those schools' labours will be clear tomorrow when, for the first time, the Government publish the A-level and GCSE results for every secondary school in the country. That will pinpoint attention where it is needed locally and on standards where they need to be improved. It is the biggest ever public information exercise. Once those new tables are launched, parents will expect them year by year in future, and they will get them year by year--and quite right, too.

Mrs. Ann Taylor : Does the Secretary of State not think it remarkable that he has managed to unite everyone in education, from the National Union of Teachers to the Girls' Schools Association in the independent sector, so that all are criticising his handling of the national curriculum and assessment procedures? Is it not about time that the Secretary of State started to listen to those parents and teachers who believe that the national curriculum is overloaded and too prescriptive? Should he not consult the Secretary of State for Scotland, who has just withdrawn proposals for the testing of seven-year-olds, which the right hon. Gentleman has just defended?

Mr. Patten : I meet teachers as I go around schools in this country. With my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools and the Minister of State, Baroness Blatch, we have visited 64 separate schools in the seven months since the general election. I have not visited one school where the head teacher or any classroom teacher has said that he or she does not support the national curriculum. There is a wide measure of agreement

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on that. I am delighted that the national curriculum is being delivered on time and will lead to improvements in standards. Was it not Matthew Arnold who talked about

"the last enchantments of the Middle Age"?

It is right for many people to debate the national curriculum, and I do not dispute that there will always be lively debates on the subject, but there are faint echoes of the 1960s in what is being said by many people.

Grant-maintained Schools

6. Mr. Lewis : To ask the Secretary of State for Education what plans he has to change the electoral arrangements in parental ballots for grant-maintained status.

Mr. Forth : We have decided to introduce more flexibility to the electoral arrangements that apply in circumstances where a ballot is declared void and the governing body is required to hold the ballot again. We have therefore included in the Education Bill a provision that will, in certain circumstances, enable the Secretary of State to specify the effective date for determining the electoral roll in a reballot. That will ensure that the ballot can proceed on the basis of an up-to-date electoral roll.

Mr. Lewis : The Minister will be aware that there have been two ballots in my constituency where parents voted not to opt out. He will also know that those two thrusts for opting out were led by the head teacher and a small co terie of ill-motivated governors-- [Interruption.] The Secretary of State and I have already clashed on the matter ; he was wrong then and he would be wrong now. There is absolutely no need to point the finger at those involved with those successful ballots, which were conducted in an orderly and fair manner. The Secretary of State needs to look at the ballots that have been successful in his own terms. He will find that in those ballots the rules were bent, and it is to that fact that he should address his attention.

Mr. Forth : I do not know what the hon. Gentleman is being so sensitive about. He seems to be saying that he welcomes cases where parents have freely expressed in a ballot their desire to make the school grant maintained, but he also seems to say that he regrets those cases and would actively oppose that very procedure. That seems to be bordering on paranoia. The hon. Gentleman should lighten up a bit and accept the opinions of parents up and down the country, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are happy to do.

Dame Jill Knight : Is my hon. Friend aware of the blatant ballot rigging, harassment and double dealing carried out in Birmingham by some Labour supporters who are trying to ensure that a school in my constituency, Lordswood girls school, does not become grant maintained? May I give him the evidence that I have received from girls, who speak in chorus about what has happened to their homes, and ask him to investigate the matter?

Mr. Forth : My hon. Friend highlights a disgraceful and distressing trend which has emerged of late and of which we in the Department for Education are obtaining increasing evidence : the deplorable behaviour of people involved in local education authorities up and down the country, and particularly in Birmingham. They use extremely unfair and unacceptable methods to seek to

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influence parents in the free expression of their view of grant-maintained status through the balloting procedure. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has made it absolutely clear that he will not accept such conduct and will take all available steps within the existing law to deal with it. We will also look at the Education Bill now in Committee to make sure that every possible step is taken to ensure that all balloting procedures are fair and free.

Mr. Eastham : Further to the Minister's remarks about grant- maintained schools, is he aware of the letter sent by the Department for Education on 3 November to chief education officers? Has he seen the replies to that letter, for instance, from the chief education officer of Manchester? He says that he finds the Department's letter most insulting and intimidating, and that he believes that some of the things that are going on with grant-maintained schools are quite unfair. In fact, we are not getting ballots at all, contrary to what the Minister says and contrary to the lies being told from the Dispatch Box. I shall publish the letter from the chief education officer--

Madam Speaker : Order. Did I understand the hon. Gentleman to use the phrase, "the lies being told from the Dispatch Box"? If so, I know that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw and refrain.

Mr. Eastham : I was talking about lines--

Madam Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman has been in this House a very long time, and he knows what I am getting at. He is an hon. Member, and I am sure that he will address the House correctly.

Mr. Eastham : I apologise, Madam Speaker, if I caused grave offence- -none was intended. All I am trying to do is clarify some points which are disbelieved by the general public. Given some of the remarks by Ministers it is my intention, with the approval of the chief education officer of Manchester, to publish his letter.

Mr. Forth : I did not hear the hon. Gentleman withdraw his remarks, Madam Speaker, but that is a matter for you.

I am sure that most chief education officers have nothing to fear in this matter and can regard the letter accordingly. Chief education officers who have something to fear--if people such as my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Dame J. Knight) can bring evidence to the Secretary of State that unacceptable or illegal activities have taken place--will find the full rigour of my Department and of the Secretary of State descending on their shoulders--I can promise the hon. Gentleman that.

Educational Psychology Services

7. Mr. Steen : To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will make a statement on the workings and future of the educational psychology services.

Mr. Forth : Educational psychology services are the responsibility of local education authorities. This will remain the case under the Education Bill. Their services will be provided equally for grant- maintained and LEA-maintained school pupils.

Mr. Steen : I welcome choice and diversity in education, but many parents should be concerned about the erosion

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of the schools psychology service, in view of the dramatic changes taking place in both the funding and the management of schools. Is the Minister aware of the recent audit report which states that the schools psychology service is extremely professional, is very well run, and provides good value for money? Will he avoid his officials persuading him otherwise?

Mr. Forth : My hon. Friend has an intimate knowledge of these matters, despite which I am sure that he will be entirely impartial in his assessment of their value. There can be no doubt in anyone's mind about the essential nature of and value provided by the educational psychology services, both now and under the continuing obligations laid on local education authorities in the Bill now in Committee. I expect educational psychology services to develop and change and to show flexibility as the Bill progresses. The treatment of special educational needs is strengthened under that Bill.

Mr. Win Griffiths : Does the Minister accept that there is real and widespread concern that the schools psychology service and other learning support services for children with special needs are under threat, and that some of those services have already been diminished by the impact of the Education Reform Act 1988? If he is not prepared to accept that from me, will he undertake a survey of local education authorities to find out what has happened to these services since 1988? If they have declined, will he take steps to put that right?

Mr. Forth : I do not accept what the hon. Gentleman says. He does a great disservice to local education authorities and to professionals in educational psychology and other services in making such assertions. Local education authorities' statutory obligations are clear now and will continue to be clear under the Education Bill. It will be for local education authorities to ensure that they discharge their statutory obligations properly. That is what we shall be ensuring and I join the hon. Gentleman in looking to local education authorities to do just that.

Mr. Harry Greenway : Does my hon. Friend accept that educational psychologists undertake much preventive work which is often overlooked? Much as we all welcome my hon. Friend's important statement that local education authorities will continue to be responsible for educational psychology services, will he confirm that it is crucial to the future of the child statementing process that the psychology service should continue at its present level, if not at a greater level?

Mr. Forth : My hon. Friend is correct. He will know from the Education Bill now in Committee that we have sought to strengthen the provision for children with special educational needs. The statutory obligations on local education authorities continue, and we are strengthening, speeding up and making more specific the way in which they will work. I am confident that generally, and in terms of the role played by educational psychologists, that can only mean a great improvement in provision for pupils with special educational needs.

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Discretionary Awards

8. Mrs. Helen Jackson : To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will make a statement about the funding available in the next financial year to finance discretionary awards.

Mr. Forman : It is for each local education authority to determine its own policies and expenditure on discretionary awards in the light of local needs and priorities. In the financial year 1990-91, the latest year for which figures are available, authorities in England spent £216 million on discretionary awards. Details of next year's funding settlement for local authorities will be announced later this year.

Mrs. Jackson : Does the Minister agree that the restrictions on local authorities' resources are making it increasingly difficult for them to offer a proper service on discretionary awards, particularly to mature students? What advice would he give to one of my constituents, a mature working class student, who struggled for five years to obtain an excellent law degree only to find himself without financial resources for the Law Society's final course? Does he agree that, in the light of mounting concern about the white, male, middle-class, Oxbridge-educated, legal profession, it is high time that the Government made the final fourth year of the Law Society's course eligible for a mandatory grant and made available the resources for that?

Mr. Forman : That is heavy dose of special pleading from the hon. Lady. The resources available to local authorities under the education standard spending assessment are generous and will continue to be so. In the past full year for which figures are available, that sum was expanded by 7.4 per cent. and well-run local authorities should be able to finance an adequate level of discretionary awards within that sum.

Mr. Marland : Is my hon. Friend aware that there is also considerable concern in Gloucestershire about the lack of money available for discretionary awards? That is in no small way due to the appalling way in which Liberal councillors in Gloucestershire have managed the county council's finances, not least in trying to buy votes in the Cheltenham area before the last general election. But the more sensible councillors in Gloucestershire county council feel that the standard spending assessment for education may have been slewed against Gloucestershire when compared with those of Oxfordshire and Devon. Will my hon. Friend undertake to keep the matter under review?

Mr. Forman : I shall always keep important matters of that kind under review, especially when they are raised by my hon. Friend who has highlighted a typical example of Liberal mismanagement of local government. I have had direct experience of that in the London borough of Sutton, and I entirely agree with him.

Mr. Tony Lloyd : Let me remind the Minister--even if it touches a raw nerve on the Conservative Benches--that those who are not white, male or middle class constitute the majority in this country. It is not "special pleading" to suggest that discretionary grants form a vital part of financial support for many people who would not otherwise have access to education. I hope that the Minister understands that.

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Is the Minister aware that nearly two thirds of local authorities have cut or frozen discretionary awards for the current financial year? That means that many people who should be able to take advantage of such awards are unable to do so. What does the Minister intend to do about it? Will the Government provide a proper settlement for local authorities, and ensure that discretionary awards are available?

Mr. Forman : The forthcoming settlement for local authorities in relation to their expenditure on education will form part of the announcement that my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment will make later this year.

Mr. Nigel Jones : Following the answer that the Minister gave to the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Marland), may I ask him whether he realises that Gloucestershire county council is ruled by a Conservative- Labour pact?

Mr. Forman : That just shows how unwise it is to enter into alliances with the Liberal party.

Grant-maintained Schools

9. Mr. Ward : To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many schools in England have not opted for grant-maintained status.

Mr. Forth : A total of 22,072 maintained schools in England have not had a ballot for grant-maintained status. Of the 701 schools that have balloted for grant-maintained status, only 152 have voted "no".

Mr. Ward : Is that not a good record, given the comments about intimidation that we heard earlier? How will my hon. Friend ensure that the other schools that will be holding ballots--if they know what is good for their children--will hold them in a fair and free manner, without such intimidation?

Mr. Forth : I am glad that my hon. Friend has asked me that. He will be aware that in the Education Bill, which is currently in Committee, we have introduced a number of provisions to streamline the application process, to abolish the requirement for a second governors' resolution before ballots, to provide support for governing bodies for expenses incurred in the promotion of grant-maintained status and to limit LEA expenditure on measures such as my hon. Friend has described. We have taken steps to ensure that a proper, balanced debate takes place before parents make an informed judgment and cast their votes.

I think that my hon. Friend will be encouraged by the information that there has been a sevenfold increase in the number of ballots this October compared with the number last October, and that about 200 schools are balloting in October and November this year alone. That shows that we are on the up and up, and rolling.

Mr. Soley : The Minister's answer was not accurate. A total of 24, 500 schools have not balloted, perhaps realising that--as with the ballots under the Housing Act 1988--all those not voting would be counted as having voted yes.

While the Minister is dealing with disinformation, may I ask him why he chose to single out Hammersmith and Fulham for providing what he described as disgraceful material? He has never given any examples of such material. Will he tell me--either now or in writing--what

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that disgraceful material was? If he cannot do so--and I suspect that he cannot--will he apologise to parents, governors and the local authority?

Mr. Forth : My answer is yes ; and it probably will not be necessary.

Mr. William Powell : Is my hon. Friend aware that a great and growing number of schools in my constituency have already achieved grant- maintained status, and that not a single school that has done so has had the slightest cause for regret? Will my hon. Friend suggest to schools that are considering adopting such status that they approach schools in Corby and east Northamptonshire, and learn about the actual experiences of those schools?

Mr. Forth : My hon. Friend has made an important point, which is worth emphasising. Anyone who is considering adopting

grant-maintained status can do no better than go to a school that has been grant maintained for some time and speak to the head teacher, the governors and the parents of pupils. That person will find--as Her Majesty's inspectorate has found--that grant-maintained schools benefit in almost every conceivable way from their new independent status and authority. That is reflected in more popularity, better standards and better treatment of pupils.

My hon. Friend made his point very well. I urge all those who are interested in grant-maintained status for their schools to talk to people who have already adopted it : they will receive a very positive response.

White Paper (Consultation)

10. Mr. Llwyd : To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will extend the period of consultation on the education White Paper.

Mr. Patten : The consultation period on the White Paper "Choice and Diversity : A New Framework for Schools", ended on 25 September. The Government have now introduced the Education Bill into Parliament, to give effect to the proposals in the White Paper. Having had a successful Second Reading, the Bill is now in Committee.

Mr. Llwyd : As the main thrust of the Education Bill apparently is to provide diversity and choice for parents, will the Minister explain how that will be achieved in large rural areas of Wales and England, where primary schools are often 10 or 15 miles apart and secondary schools 25 or 30 miles apart? As such areas are already suffering extreme economic hardship, will he explain how this plan will gel together?

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