House of Commons Hansard Debates for 1 Mar 1993

Hansard

Monday 1 March 1993

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[ Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]

Oral Answers to Questions

WALES

EC Butter and Beef

1. Mr. Martyn Jones : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has to change the method of distribution of EC butter and beef in 1994 in Clwyd and Wales.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Gwilym Jones) : May I start, Madam Speaker, by wishing you, on behalf of everyone here, a happy St. David's day.

The arrangements for the European surplus food scheme in the United Kingdom are being reviewed and any alterations to the arrangements will be announced at the end of the review.

Mr. Martyn Jones : I am glad to hear that from the Minister, because he will know that in my constituency, people in parts of Glyndwr, which is not distributing food, receive food via their community council. Many people live close to Wrexham council areas, where people automatically receive food via the district council. That is utterly unfair. I hope that the review will have the result that everyone who is entitled to EC surplus food will receive it.

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Mr. Gwilym Jones : I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman says. There is a differing degree of coverage throughout Wales. Taking the example of one part of my constituency, one individual--Councillor Victor Reilly--has taken on the superhuman job of spearheading the distribution of butter and beef. However, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the publicity that has been given to the scheme has resulted in twice as many organisations coming forward this winter as were in operation last year.

Local Government Reform

2. Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received on the cost of local government reform in Wales.

The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. David Hunt) : The Welsh Consultative Council on Local Government had a full discussion about the Touche Ross report on the costs of local government reorganisation at its meeting on 17 February. Since the report was published I have received three written representations.

Mr. Jones : The Secretary of State will be aware of the view of the Association of Welsh Counties that a balanced interpretation of the Touche Ross report suggests that the cost of local government reorganisation in Wales could be anything between £100 million and £150 million. So how can the Secretary of State justify his claim that the cost will be recovered in seven years, bearing in mind from previous experience the fact that local government reform is an absolute disaster in financial terms? Is it true that this year's county budgets have been cut to find money for the reforms?

Mr. Hunt : On the last point, no, that is not true. As the hon. Gentleman will see if he looks at the figures, the total standard spending for local authorities in the coming financial year is up by 3.1 per cent., even before one takes into account the amount set aside for community care, which puts the increase up to 3.5 per cent.

On the point about the costs of local government reorganisation, I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not arguing against reorganisation. First, the costs are spread

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over 15 years. Secondly, they do not take account of the annual savings, which earlier reports have suggested will be substantial. That is why I say that the reorganisation of local government could pay for itself within about seven years.

Mr. Roger Evans : Does my right hon. Friend accept that the expense of the previous local government reorganisation was largely due to the creation of multi-tier arrangements, which have so disastrously failed? Will he give some reassurance and some figures about, for example, what savings will be occasioned by his present proposals, particularly in the cases of Monmouth and Gwent? Gwent county council is seen by the public as an unnecessary and extravagant layer of local government.

Mr. Hunt : I agree with my hon. Friend. Substantial annual savings will flow from the reorganisation into unitary authorities. For the mid- range of about 20 to 23 authorities, one is looking at annual savings of between £12 million and £17 million. Of course, the previous example cannot be followed for the reasons that my hon. Friend gave. We shall make absolutely sure that the reorganisation presents value for money as well as establishing good, strong local government.

Mr. Murphy : Will the Secretary of State acknowledge that not only the county councils but many district councils believe that he has seriously underestimated the cost of local government reform? Does he accept that many of the figures are pure guesswork, especially when it comes to the amount that local authorities will have to pay out in redundancy payments? How can he justify the fact that local government might cost as much as £150 million when Wales is recoiling at the savagery of the cuts to education and other local government services?

Mr. Hunt : The hon. Gentleman made a number of points. First, local government reorganisation into unitary authorities is widely welcomed in Wales. The hon. Gentleman should recall that, right at the start of the consultation process, no strong lobby argued that we should continue the existing system, because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Evans) said, there are savings to be achieved by having one unitary local authority administering services. To put the matter into context, local authority budgets for this financial year total £2,472 million. If one sets that against the figures that we have mentioned, one sees that the transitional cost would total perhaps between 2 and 6 per cent. I believe that the reorganisation will represent great value for money and that we shall have better local government as a result.

Abattoirs

3. Mr. Dafis : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received concerning the effect of EC regulations on small and medium-sized abattoirs in Wales.

Mr. David Hunt : Numerous.

Mr. Dafis : I hope that the Secretary of State and the Minister will appreciate that the costs that have been imposed on small and medium-sized abattoirs because of the current interpretation of the European hygiene regulations are crippling, especially for those abattoirs

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that now provide slaughter close to the point of production, produce excellent quality meat and have an excellent record on animal welfare--just the sort of business that we should encourage. The most significant specific problem facing those abattoirs is the requirement for official veterinary surgeons to be present at the ante-mortem inspection, when that job is perfectly capable of being done by meat inspectors.Will the Secretary of State ensure that meat inspectors will be allowed to carry out that work, because it would have a significant effect in improving the prospects for small abattoirs?

Mr. Hunt : Perhaps the hon. Gentleman recalls that there was widespread dissatisfaction with the old system, which had dual standards between meat for the home market and that for the export market. It was also felt that some establishments were undercutting others that conformed to high hygiene standards. That is why we are seeking to introduce the new standards, while minimising the burden on small abattoirs in particular.

I reassure the hon. Gentleman that, although it is necessary to have veterinary supervision, we are encouraging local authorities to take practical measures to keep down costs. We have taken a number of steps to help smaller abattoirs in particular, including increasing the throughput limit for small slaughterhouses. We have also secured a review, as the hon. Gentleman will know, by the Commission of the implications of the meat hygiene directives for traditional small businesses.

Mr. Jonathan Evans : Will my right hon. Friend note that the concern expressed by the hon. Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Dafis) is shared not only by my colleagues on the Conservative Benches but, beyond Wales, throughout the United Kingdom? Although we recognise the steps to which my right hon. Friend referred, in particular to aid small abattoirs to comply with the regulations, veterinary changes are primarily the great barrier. Will my right hon. Friend note that the House desires still more to be done to assist that sector of agriculture?

Mr. Hunt : I recognise the compelling point that my hon. Friend has made. Supervision by official veterinarians-- [Interruption.] --if I can get the word right--or veterinary consultants, is important. I apologise ; I have had a rather heavy St. David's day lunch. Veterinary ante-mortem inspections is an important part of improving public protection and helping the meat market to compete in the single market. Such inspection can diagnose conditions not visible at a post-mortem. I am satisfied that by relating veterinary inspection at slaughterhouses to throughput and standards of operation and by concentrating the arrangements for veterinary attendance at low-throughput premises on ante-mortem inspection, we have struck about the right balance. However, I appreciate the issues raised by my hon. Friend.

Mr. Alex Carlile : The Secretary of State was kind enough to see me on 26 January, along with two of the proprietors of the most successful abattoirs in Wales. On that occasion, the representatives, including Mr. Edward Hammer, my constituent, made clear to the Secretary of State the desperate trouble that they were in as a result of the new regulations. What, if anything, has the Secretary of State done since that meeting to alleviate the problem?

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Mr. Hunt : I have done a number of things, to which I have already referred. I have written to all local authorities seeking to bring down the costs of inspection-- [Interruption.] I can tell the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) that St. David was the man of water. When we refer to a St. David's day lunch, we refer to the consumption of water, nothing else.

Mr. Denzil Davies : The Secretary of State may have written many letters to many local authorities, but where were he and the Welsh Office when the directive was negotiated? When I read it, it seemed as though the vets had negotiated the directive. The problem is that duplication occurs between the meat inspectors and the vets--much work could still be done by the meat inspectors. Charges vary so much between local authority districts. What is the Secretary of State going to do about the problem?

Mr. Hunt : From his own experience, the right hon. Gentleman will know the importance of food hygiene. We are talking about constantly improving food hygiene so that the public can have every confidence, not only in the quality of food, but in the hygiene behind the provision of that food, which is important. That is why I was around when the directive was being negotiated and I supported the introduction of the standards. However, I recognise that we must do our best to minimise their impact, particularly on small businesses.

Youth Facilities

4. Mr. Michael : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what are his plans for provision of youth facilities in Wales.

The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Sir Wyn Roberts) : I will continue to support local authorities and other organisations and agencies in their efforts to promote and develop provision for young people in Wales.

Mr. Michael : Those are fine words, but lacking in content. Does the Minister recognise that the inadequate finances made available by the Welsh Office to local authorities this year means that the efforts of local people, voluntary organisations and far-sighted councillors--like those in my local authority of South Glamorgan, which has sought over the years to build up the youth service--are being undermined? Does he agree with my constituent, Mrs. Yeo of Tremorfa, who, seeing the effect of the inadequate resources on her 15-year-old son and others in his age group, suggested that the cuts should be made to the Minister's finances in the Welsh Office, not forced on the local youth service?

Sir Wyn Roberts : I am aware that some authorities are thinking of limiting spending on youth services. However, I must remind the hon. Gentleman--as did my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State--that we have increased the revenue settlement for local authorities for the coming year by 3.1 per cent. If one takes the past two years together, there is an increase of 25 per cent. and, over three years, there has been an increase of 29 per cent.

Mr. Ron Davies : The Minister of State has obviously not had a share of the Secretary of State's St. David's day diod. The Minister should acknowledge that under the revenue support grant settlement for the forthcoming

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financial year, every county authority in Wales is having to cut its youth service provision. Does not he recognise how short-sighted that policy is, particularly when growing youth unemployment is pushing young people towards disaffection and alienation? Does not he realise the dangers that his policies are inflicting on the fabric of our society?

Sir Wyn Roberts : The choice is for the local authorities. We have done a great deal to support the youth organisations that are concerned with the well-being of our young people. Since 1988 we have provided grants worth about £1.4 million for national voluntary youth organisations. We have established the Youth Agency, funded to the tune of about £360,000 this year. We have provided £2 million worth of youth facilities since 1991-92 under the urban programme. And we have also ensured that we have met the youth training guarantee.

Labour Statistics

5. Mr. Win Griffiths : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the difference between the number of men and the number of women in full -time employment in Wales and Mid Glamorgan currently and in June 1979.

Mr. Gwilym Jones : Figures are not available separately for Mid Glamorgan. The proportion of the male work force in civilian employment or training was 7 per cent. greater in 1979 than 1992. The corresponding figure for women, including part-time employees, was the same for both years.

Mr. Griffiths : Even given the paucity of his figures, I hope that the Minister will admit that the reduction that they show proves that there is still a real crisis in employment in Wales. I hope that he will make two commitments this afternoon : first, that no part of Wales should lose its assisted area status in the current review. In its press releases the Welsh Office trumpets the value of that assistance to industry in Wales from time to time. Secondly, will the hon. Gentleman call in the banks in Wales and get them to review their policy towards small businesses? The policy of the banks--there have been a number of complaints against Lloyds in particular- -is causing a large number of small businesses to go into liquidation quite unnecessarily. Will he give those commitments now?

Mr. Jones : I assure the hon. Gentleman that both matters are under active consideration. Many Ministers have been involved in discussions with the banks.

The assisted area review is being conducted by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, who is keeping in very close touch with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales. The hon. Gentleman should not adopt such a negative attitude to unemployment in Wales. It is too high--it is unacceptably high--but it behoves the hon. Gentleman to recognise that since the last time unemployment peaked, in 1985, male unemployment has risen by less than half the rate of United Kingdom unemployment and female employment has risen by about four times the rate in the rest of the United Kingdom.

Mr. Morgan : As the Secretary of State seems to want to run away from answering questions on the economy today, may I tell him that I am in the rather fortunate

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position of having not only a daffodil but a leek--a leak from the Conservative research department, in the form of its briefing for today's debate? The Secretary of State and his ministerial colleagues will never grasp the seriousness of unemployment in Wales while they rely on the garbage written by the Conservative research department. The document trumpets the major inward investment successes of 1992, yet the first three listed, General Electric at Nantgarw, Ford at Bridgend and Texaco at Pembroke, do not produce an additional job between them--

Madam Speaker : Order. This is Question Time ; we have an Adjournment debate on the whole subject of Wales later. I ask the hon. Gentleman to put his question now.

Mr. Morgan : I have done.

Mr. Jones : The hon. Gentleman plainly shows that he has no question to ask. Once again, he chooses to ignore the realities of life in Wales, especially during the recession. Wales has been demonstrating the fundamental strength of its economy by the way in which it has been fighting back. Unemployment is now below the national average for the first time in 70 years. It is 0.3 per cent. lower ; when we went into recession, it was 0.8 per cent. higher than the national average.

Employment Prospects

6. Mr. Ray Powell : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what measures he is taking to improve the employment prospects for the long-term unemployed in Ogmore, Mid Glamorgan and Wales.

Mr. David Hunt : Extensive measures.

Mr. Powell : I thank the Minister for that reply. Will those measures reduce the unemployment in Ogmore and in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mr. Griffiths)? In 1979, total unemployment in the Ogmore constituency, which then included Bridgend, was 3.7 per cent. It is now well over 20 per cent. in my area. In addition, there are long-term unemployed people and they were made unemployed by the actions of the Government since 1979 when they reduced manning in the steel industry and closed seven collieries. What does the Minister propose to do to employ people in my constituency, in Bridgend and throughout Wales?

Mr. Hunt : Of course, our economic policies will bring down unemployment, but there is always a lag between a reduction in inflation, which are now down to 1.7 per cent., and a reduction in interest rates, which is now down to 6 per cent. Even against that background and the background of the present recession, not only in this country but in many others, the Employment Service managed to place 1.4 million unemployed people back into jobs last year. Next year, starting in April, our programme of employment and training opportunities will give almost 1.5 million opportunities for unemployed people, especially those who have been out of work for some time.

Mr. Richards : Will my right hon. Friend confirm that prospects for the long-term unemployed in Ogmore, as elsewhere in the United Kingdom, are infinitely better under this Government than they would be under a Labour Government, especially in the context of the social chapter of the Maastricht treaty? If the Opposition had

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their way, the social chapter would be included in the treaty and, if implemented, it would drastically affect unemployment in this country.

Mr. Hunt : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In the past seven years in Wales there has been a substantial reduction--41 per cent.--in the number of long-term unemployed. That represents a fall from 78, 000 to 46,000--a reduction of 32,000. Wales now has record productivity and record manufacturing output. Our message is that Wales will lead the United Kingdom out of recession.

Mr. Ron Davies : The Secretary of State has another record. He has 134,000 unemployed people in Wales and one in three of them is long-term unemployed. The total cost of that unemployment to the Welsh economy is £1.2 billion. Those are the records of reality about which the Secretary of State chooses not to speak. Does not he realise that the time for his con tricks and cosmetics is past? If we are to tackle the problem of the long-term unemployed we need a completely new approach and a strategy that will renew our economy and revitalise our manufacturing sector.

Mr. Hunt : The hon. Gentleman says that we need to revitalise our manufacturing sector. Let us look at the facts. Manufacturing output is 126.3 per cent. compared with 100 per cent. in 1979. It is up by over 25 per cent. The index of production in the United Kingdom over the past year was up by 0.4 per cent. while in Wales it was up by 1.4 per cent. Manufacturing productivity now stands at over £30,000 per employee, which is one of the highest anywhere in the United Kingdom and 6.4 per cent. above the United Kingdom average. When one looks at the facts one sees the answer to the hon. Gentleman. He should start talking up the Welsh economy and then we should certainly see the growth that we need.

Mr. Barry Porter : I congratulate my right hon. and hon. Friends on the steps that they have already taken about employment in Wales. In view of the planning permission for the gas terminal at Point of Ayr, would not it be sensible for employment in Wales and in parts of Merseyside as well if some pressure were put on the Department of Trade and Industry to grant section 36 consent for the Connah's Quay power station? I hope that that will happen very soon.

Mr. Hunt : I recognise that my hon. Friend has been lobbying extremely hard on this subject. As he recognised, it is a matter for my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade because section 36 consent is under his aegis. I shall ensure that my hon. Friend's words are immediately conveyed to my right hon. Friend.

Valleys Line

7. Dr. Kim Howells : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met representatives of British Rail's valleys line network to discuss investment.

Sir Wyn Roberts : The Cardiff-valleys network was one of the issues that my right hon. Friend discussed with the chairman of British Rail and his regional railways director when they met on 7 September last.

Dr. Howells : Does the Minister recognise that the huge growth in vehicle traffic over the past 20 years or so has

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made many of our key trunk roads congested, dangerous and often the source of major pollution of the atmosphere? Will he ensure that our extensive rail networks are employed to their fullest extent and that adequate investment is made available to make them user- friendly and efficient so that we can get traffic off the roads and back on to the railways, where it should be?

Sir Wyn Roberts : The hon. Gentleman will know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State gave supplementary credit approvals totalling £3.56 million to Mid and South Glamorgan for funding major investment projects in the valleys network. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that we want to take traffic off the road and we are investigating the position of the A470 between Pontypridd and Coryton. We are looking at the possibilities of investment in rail to cover the increased use of that area and of that road in particular.

Mr. Sweeney : What are the prospects for a link between the valleys network and Cardiff bay? Secondly, is there any hope of getting a link with the Cardiff Wales airport?

Sir Wyn Roberts : My Department is supporting a study, commissioned by South Glamorgan county council in conjunction with other local authorities, British Rail and the Cardiff Bay development corporation, into options, including a light rail system, for improved public transport links between the valleys and Cardiff bay. The railway to Rhoose airport is a matter for South Glamorgan county council, which has discussed it with British Rail, but there has been no positive decision.

Mr. Rogers : Surely the Minister recognises that the valleys line is in a deplorable state, with trains running late and crowded. Often, the service is not available. When, as valley Members, we take up the issue with British Rail, its answer is that stock has had to be transferred to lines outside Wales because of general shortages. Will the Minister take up immediately with the relevant controllers of British Rail the matter of stealing railway stock from Wales and transferring it to England?

Sir Wyn Roberts : I shall consider and investigate what the hon. Gentleman has said. He will know as well as I do that operational matters are for British Rail rather than for me.

Jobs

8. Mr. Donald Anderson : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what specific measures he proposes to take to safeguard existing jobs in Wales.

Mr. David Hunt : The Welsh Office, together with the development agencies and training and development councils, already has in train a number of measures to encourage enterprise, create new jobs and safeguard existing jobs.

Mr. Anderson : I have a simple question. What efforts has the Secretary of State made since October last year, when this came to light, to safeguard and protect the 3,000 jobs at the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency at Swansea?

Mr. Hunt : As the hon. Gentleman knows, that is primarily a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport, but I am fully involved in the

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discussions and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that no decisions have been made. The current framework document for the agency expires in April of this year and it is therefore proper that all options should be carefully explored.

Mr. Mark Robinson : Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the best ways to bring down unemployment in Wales is to go on encouraging inward investment into the Principality, on which our record is second to none?

Mr. Hunt : Given the latest figures for inward investment, despite the worldwide recession, it is remarkable that, once again, previous records have been beaten. To have more than 200 promising projects, many of which are still to recruit and to invest their capital programmes, is a good sign of the optimism that is present in Wales ; confidence and order books are high. Now, we want to see the growth in the economy that all that promises.

Mr. Alan Williams : As the Secretary of State is aware, we welcome all inward investment. Does he not think it grotesque, however, that at a time when he and his colleagues are, as previous Governments did, working to secure such investment, his Cabinet colleague, the Secretary of State for Transport, is putting at risk twice as many jobs in three agencies at Swansea as the jobs that are at risk at Fords? Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that the Secretary of State for Transport understands clearly that privatisation should not be used as a weapon against regional policy?

Mr. Hunt : First, I welcome what the right hon. Gentleman said about inward investment. We are greatly assisted by many hon. Members on both sides of the House in making sure that we win investment. We are successful because we follow a team approach. I include in the team, of course, local authorities, agencies and hon. Members. As I told the hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson), no decisions have been taken. I shall, of course, be fully involved in the discussions.

Exports

9. Mr. Fabricant : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will make a statement concerning the exportation of products from the Lampeter region.

Sir Wyn Roberts : I am pleased to say that a number of firms in the Lampeter area are exporting very successfully.

Mr. Fabricant : Is my right hon. Friend aware that in many hotels in the far east, and I include Jakarta-- [Interruption.] I shall ask my question despite attempts by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies), both in the Chamber and outside, to prevent me from doing so. Is my right hon. Friend-- [Interruption.]

Madam Speaker : Order.

Mr. Fabricant : Is my right hon. Friend aware that in many parts of the far east, including Jakarta, the only type of bottled water that can be bought is, surprisingly, that from Perrier in France? Is he aware also that Lampeter bottles excellent water called Ty Nant? What is my right hon. Friend doing to promote its export?

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Sir Wyn Roberts : Ty Nant spring water of Lampeter is well known to my Department, and I am aware of the success that has been achieved in exporting it abroad. My officials have visited the company and provided its representatives with advice and information about the opportunities that are available in overseas markets. I am glad to tell my hon. Friend that he will find Ty Nant spring water in western Europe, the United States of America and Australia. I dare say that it is what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State had for lunch today in honour of St. David, who was a man who had a predilection for water.

I am appalled, as I am sure the rest of the House will be, to hear my hon. Friend say that he was threatened by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies) when he thought of tabling a question. We welcome questions from Conservative Members and from any Members of the House.

Mr. Flynn : Is the Minister aware that Lampeter is the centre of the organic farming industry of Wales, with one company there employing 150 people? As organic farming is good for the environment and for people, will he encourage its growth so that we can eat vegetables and other foodstuffs as pure as Dewi Sant?

Sir Wyn Roberts : Seeing the daffodil on the hon. Gentleman's lapel and on the lapels of all round the Chamber, I am pleased that I am wearing a leek, which is at least edible. Yes, we encourage organic farming. We hope that it will be accompanied by warm libations of water.

Welsh Economic Council

10. Mr. Wigley : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many representations he has received to date concerning his plans to establish a Welsh economic council.

Mr. David Hunt : A total of 88.

Mr. Wigley : On this, St. David's day, will the Secretary of State accept that an economic council will not do away with the democratic deficit in Wales or improve the accountability of the Welsh Office and the Welsh quangos to the people of Wales? Does he accept that the only way in which we shall get sensitive government that can concentrate attention on the needs of Wales and respond to the widespread dissatisfaction with the present system of government is to have our own parliament in Cardiff that will be answerable to the people of Wales?

Mr. Hunt : That point was not made in the 88 representations that I received, so the hon. Gentleman has made it on this occasion. I had hoped that he would say that he very much welcomed the proposal for a Welsh economic council. That has certainly been the view of almost everyone who responded to the consultation document.

I recognise that the hon. Gentleman has a long-standing commitment to the establishment of a bureaucratic Welsh assembly, but he knows that he and I have differed in that respect for a long time. Notwithstanding that background, I hope that he will welcome a Welsh economic council.

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