CABINET OFFICE & CENTRAL OFFICE OF INFORMATION

28 NOVEMBER 2007

  Q60  Mr Mitchell: So it is libraries where people can drop in. Is there any support there for them?

  Ms Cleveland: Some of them run specific courses as well through their local authorities and UK online.

  Q61  Mr Davidson: I wonder if I can follow up the point that my colleague was on and that is the question of access. The figures that have say 79% of people receiving means tested benefits lack ICT skills. 51% of adults earning less than 10,400 a year have never used the internet. The worry I have about this, representing a relatively poor constituency, is that we are creating two types of society, two groups of people, those that can use all this and those that cannot. Most public services like the National Health Service respond to demand. It is the chattering classes that know how to work the system, that get most out of it, and you respond to that sort of pressure. Those that cannot access this just simply get left further and further behind. How do you respond to that?

  Mr Suffolk: Our starting point has to be what are the needs and wants of citizens. How do they want those needs and wants to be fulfilled? Let me give you an example. It has been quite topical in the media recently that in many parts of the UK citizens speak 100 different languages. We should not assume, because someone speaks a language, they can read or write in that language. Therefore, the internet in many respects serves no purpose for that. As you quite rightly say, the whole issue in terms of rural economy is it may not be appropriate in terms of some situations to provide services on the internet to serve sections of the population. The work we are doing in terms of what is it that citizens want and how they want it delivered drives how we deliver those services. Our strategy absolutely is not to put everything on the internet because that will not fulfil certain segments of the population.
  (The Committee suspended from 4.18pm to 4.25pm for a division in the House)

  Q62 Mr Davidson: I am not sure that I entirely either understood or accepted what you were giving me there. You would accept that the services are likely to be driven by demand, which is clearly going to be disproportionate for those who are internet and computer literate, which is clearly unrepresentative of society as a whole. There is nothing you have said so far that has assured me that the people I represent are not going to be even more disadvantaged than they are at the moment. Can you help me?

  Mr Suffolk: If your starting point is working out what citizens want, every kind of citizen, not just the ones in the majority, you will obviously work out the needs of those who do not understand technology or do not wish to use technology. Again, the latest ONS research says there is a segment of society, 30 plus per cent, that sees no need to use the internet. By definition, we have to provide other channels of access, whether that is over the telephone, face to face or even personal visits. Alexis can talk more in terms of the way they dealt with access to citizens in the Pension Service. Our starting point is always around understanding the needs of all the citizens, not just a segment of citizens, and then providing the channel of access that is right for them.

  Q63  Mr Davidson: What evidence have you that the group about whom I am most concerned are not being disadvantaged by this?

  Ms Cleveland: I am trying to think of it in terms of internet usage.

  Q64  Mr Davidson: Basically, that is a none. There is no evidence that the development of this system, structure and so on is not further disadvantaging the people about whom I am concerned.

  Mr Bishop: Would it not be true that it could only disadvantage them if other channels of access for those people were being run down as a consequence? Because that is not the case, the other channels are still there.

  Q65  Mr Davidson: No, they are not. The Benefits Agency for example have been moving much more onto phone provision rather than face to face provision. Part of the advantage of this, which I understand, is that it is greatly cheaper, but there is no evidence as far as I can see that the money thus saved is being spent on efforts to reach those who are not being reached by this system. Is that not correct?

  Ms Cleveland: Certainly Jobcentre Plus has been rationalising some of its outlets but it still provides a face to face service.

  Q66  Mr Davidson: No, it does not.

  Ms Cleveland: Their first point of contact is often the telephone.

  Q67  Mr Davidson: Absolutely but it is clearly not as accessible as it was before it rationalised.

  Ms Cleveland: That is true.

  Q68  Mr Davidson: They are now providing a worse service than they did before while they are placing increasing emphasis on the internet thereby widening the gulf between those who are computer literate, who by and large tend to be the most demanding of public services, and whose need is least.

  Ms Cleveland: I do not see this as being a specifically internet issue. It is about understanding your customer base. We are not a commercial organisation who can pick and choose who we serve. Therefore, we need to have a look at what is our customer base and what are the appropriate channels or ways in which we—

  Q69  Mr Davidson: I understand that but I have asked a couple of times now whether or not you can provide me with any assurances that the other channels are being developed with the same degree of vigour and enthusiasm that these channels are being developed, and nobody has said so. I think we are in danger of having a technology which has its geeks, its enthusiasts, its proselytisers and so on, which will develop, and the other channels, which are perhaps more old fashioned and less at the cutting edge and less likely to get people promotion are going to be neglected, and the groups that need those other channels most are going to be left behind still further.

  Mr Suffok: When we look at it in terms of where the effort is going, in terms of the Sir David Varney work, which is about looking at every channel of access, whether it be on the Internet, on the phone, local authority face to face, or the local authorities, I think the work that we are doing in terms of the local authority delivery council is about taking a holistic view to how we deal with all citizens from all channels. My belief is that we are getting to the people.

  Q70  Mr Davidson: I understand that. I can speak for hours on these things as well and not say anything, but what I am seeking to clarify is what steps specifically are being taken to compensate for the development of service in this way, and unless I am mistaken you cannot give me any.

  Ms Cleveland: What we can do is at the point of actually trying to build up, encouraging departments that understand their customer base—

  Q71  Mr Davidson: Give me an example of what has been done?

  Ms Cleveland: We have set up a customer insight forum that runs across departments—

  Q72  Mr Davidson: How many people does it see? How many constituents of mine is the customer insight forum likely to have provided a better service for?

  Ms Cleveland: That is a forum; it is a central forum of government—

  Q73  Mr Davidson: That is right. I am not interested in all that stuff, the internal workings; what I want to know is whether or not you can identify some examples of customer facing, dealing with the public in areas like mine where it has actually improved, because it is not my impression.

  Ms Cleveland: An example I would give is services to older people through joint working between DWP and local authorities where they in all but one of the primary tier local authorities across the country now offer a joint service where they can go out and visit people in their homes or appointments—

  Q74  Mr Davidson: So they can go out and visit people but they do not automatically do it.

  Ms Cleveland: For the appropriate customers, so if it is someone who needs a home visit they have now rationalised the service so that it could be someone from a local authority visiting on behalf of DWP or someone from DWP on behalf of the local authority.

  Q75  Mr Davidson: I am aware of some of that, you have given me one example.

  Ms Cleveland: So it increases the total resource available.

  Q76  Mr Davidson: Is there any evidence that the money that has been saved by providing the information more cheaply through the Internet has been redirected towards boosting the channels to reach those that do not access the Internet, or is it just being saved?

  Ms Cleveland: Given that we have not been able to identify fully the costs of this we cannot give any audit trail that would show how money that maybe had been saved in this area has been redeployed somewhere else.

  Q77  Mr Davidson: So there is no evidence of redeployment and there is no evidence of expansion of money on the alternative routes?

  Ms Cleveland: Not a direct audit trail that we could demonstrate to you.

  Q78  Mr Davidson: Is there any evidence of money being directed into the alternative routes?

  Ms Cleveland: Certainly in terms of the development of frontline services in local authorities.

  Q79  Mr Davidson: Can you provide that to the National Audit Office and we can maybe get an addendum in due course?

  Ms Cleveland: We can certainly give you a note of what is happening on the front office shared service area and the local office.[1]